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If the US forced ByteDance to sell Tiktok, the US would lose its last bit of moral high ground in China, the spirit of free market and rule by law. If you are

by fqye 6y ago

If the US forced ByteDance to sell Tiktok, the US would lose its last bit of moral high ground in China, the spirit of free market and rule by law. If you are worried about data leakage to China, you set rules and law and enforce them. That is what China is doing. They asked Apple and other cloud service provider to store data in China. The US could setup clear rules and regulations about where to put data of US users and if it is allowed to send the data to third country like China and then enforce them. And China asked companies to set up jv in some sectors before they entered China market. They didn't do it after they were already here. Microsoft destroyed China's local word and spreadsheet editor software developers and China didn't ask MS to sell its China local business. This act is pure bullying and imperialism. After that happens, the US wouldn't be able to command any support from Chinese people when it accuses CCP of anything.

actuator 6y ago
Honestly, you have some valid points and this bullying by forcing it to be sold is bad. I think the fear is the manipulation that social media platforms can easily do of discourse and emotions. This is not as simple as just selling word processing software. We have seen manipulation on US's own social media platforms by actors not even inside the company. Imagine a government which has supreme control on the companies on its own soil, imagine what it can do. I would say the fear is well founded, the solution to is not. In case of the companies under free governments and justice systems, this becomes hard as any FB employee can go out and use the free press to expose if any manipulation like this is ordered.
nujabe 6y ago
What an embarrassingly delusional comment! And quite deceptive too. China, under no circumstances, no matter where the data is stored will allow Facebook or any other social/news media to have a presence in their country. What part of reciprocity do you not understand?
- fqye 6y ago
  Bing is accessible from China. FB and Twitter must comply with censorship rules and storage of user data in China, among other things, to operate in China. Google was operating and accessible in China until China made clear the rules for them to follow. Google decided it couldn't follow they they pulled out the search engine business from China. China didn't force Google to sell. Censorship is bad but that is another issue. And to do personal attack doesn't make you look smart.
  - nujabe 6y ago
    Dang, every one of this user's posts is defending the CCP. I think you've mentioned something about 'single purpose accounts' not being allowed. I kindly ask you take a look at this. As for your comment fqye, it is not even worthy of a response.
    - fqye 6y ago
      So what? If CCP isn't allowed to be defended here, isn't this place exactly what CCP is?
      - nujabe 6y ago
        It is against the rules to have an account, such as yours, whose only purpose is to defend the CCP.
        haecceity 6y ago
        He has such an account because he wants to remain anonymous because views such as his are such that people like you would censor and ostracize him. Such is the hypocrisy of one who cries for freedom and free speech.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
Nightshaxx 6y ago
The accusations against China is that they do not follow the rules. Stealing IP is very illegal in the US but that didn't (allegedly) stop Waweii. So just saying "make more rules" is not a valid solution if the accusations are true. Byte dance already does store data in the US, but the only way to 100% prove they aren't sending data to China is to regularly audit ISP logs.
- fqye 6y ago
  It is fair to accuse China of anything. It is the actions the government or law makers take that matter. I think Trump administration is them problem. It is amazing to see how much a single term of an irrational president could damage a country in almost every aspects.
- russli1993 6y ago
  Are you talking about Huawei? If there is IP and IP infringement why not sue the company? I thought there is tons of cases of IP lawsuits each year? Huawei has operations in many markets like Europe with strong rule of law, sue Huawei in Europe. There are two law suits against Huawei from Cisco and T-Mobile. The first case both parties settled out of court. Second case is about a phone test arm, and already settled after ruling by courts. Huawei's main technology, and where U.S. gov has a problem with is with 5G. Huawei actually has a lot of patients in 5G. Many companies licences their technology. If there is a legitimate case of IP theft, then sue the company. TikTok is operated by the TikTok office in the U.S. ByteDance is incorporated in Cayman islands so Chinese laws do not have any jurisdiction over TikTok office. There is no way for Chinese government to force their censorship rules and steal data from TikTok data stored in the US. Unless tiktok employees in the US office hands the data to China. But TikTok employees in the US office are all American. The CEO of TikTok is Kevin Mayer. The content regulation team is staffed with American employees. Data is stored in US servers and backed up in Singapore. TikTok is hiring more in the US office to develop TikTok going forward. TikTok also plans to experts can observe our moderation policies in real-time, as well as examine the actual code that drives our algorithms. Source: https://newsroom.tiktok.com/en-us/fair-competition-and-transparency-benefits-us-all https://newsroom.tiktok.com/en-us/fair-competition-and-trans... Source: Bytedance corporate structure https://www.bytedance.com/en https://www.bytedance.com/en But the US gov is not giving TikTok any opportunity to explain themselves. Whatever Bytedance management can do, there is no way for them to shake off the belief that TikTok sends data to the US government. As for ByteDance, the founder of Bytedance is a Chinese national. But the board member also includes non Chinese people. Chinese people do not all agree with the government. And Chinese people definitely do not want to work for or help the government unless absolutely required under Chinese law. Chinese people enjoy freedom and distance from Chinese government as well. A lot of Chinese people admire the US for its rule of law, its innovation and the general classiness when doing things. This is especially true in the entrepreneur and technology scene in China, where the US is often looked up to. People want to be friendly. No one wants to undermine the U.S. No one wants to be associated with the government or work as a spy to steal data. I have been following the creation and growth of tiktok and douyin since the beginning. There are many interviews and news story about the company and the founders. The creation of tiktok is to spread happiness, creativity, raw human ingenuity through music, dances and user generated video. And all the founder wanted to do is develop a business from that and earn money from that. They worked really hard to develop the product, the marketing and the user base. The least they wanted is to be tied with politics, ideology wars, fake news, disinformation, political propaganda. The founder, zhang yiming, is a technologists and software engineer, not a politician, not a ccp ideologist. He has always displayed a general likeness and admiration towards the US since the beginning. I mean, why won't he? He studied C++, Javascript, big data, coding for IOS and Android. All of that comes from the U.S. And he has collaborated with US business people since the beginning. I guess his friendliness and admiration to US is why he entered the US market, step up office in the US and hired US employees. But now they are caught between politics in China, ideology battle, and geopolitics.They are seeing their hard work going down the drain, and asking themselves "Probably my biggest crime is born in mainland China". No matter what they do, they cant shake off people's belief that they work for the Chinese government. Its a profound feeling of hopelessness.
ipsum2 6y ago
I was going to make a similar comment, but I think your comment is a little exaggerated. Freedom of speech is still differentiates the US and China.
- fqye 6y ago
  I am not exaggerating about the US losing it credibility in China. The US was really the shining city on the hill before 2008 financial crisis. I personally was huge admirer of the US system. I even spent about 1 year in DC just to study the political system of the US. Before the 2008 financial crisis, China tried to copy everything from the US, from finanical market regulations to education system and to some degree, political system reform. There was a period when academics and even some very senior CCP members called for small government, separation of party and administrative system, and they even used the term 'put power into cages'. The 2008 financial crisis that started in the US made China's elites within the party and outside of the party think hard if the US system is really the answer. Trump administration, the handling of covid-19 and the BLM protests further changed the view towards the US and made it impossible for those friendly with the US to promote the US value system in China now. Tiktok is considered a national pride because it thrives by open competition in the US and the world. This act of forced selling without a due process for Tiktok to defend itself from accusation of spying for China would absolutely be another huge blow to the credibility of the US in China.
  - throwaway189262 6y ago
    Do you not realize it was Xi and his propaganda that caused a massive change in opinion of the west? The state news agencies constantly blames everything on foreigners and the west. It has nothing to do with financial crises or BLM or whatever. Financial crisis also happened in 2001 and 80's, they happen all the time. BLM protests are insignificant, US has protests constantly because they are not restricted by government. Handling of COVID is bad, and most of us don't like Trump. But Xi's anti west propaganda is very real and influences all Chinese news and social media. Xi has massively ramped up rhetoric against the west and especially US. That is why majority of Chinese don't respect the US anymore. You can see Xi saber rattling with US, building basesin South China Sea. Troop fights with India. Bullshit with Tibet Dali llama. Uighur re-education camps. Crackdown on Hong Kong. There's many more. This is why relations with US are going bad. Xi is pissing everyone off to drum up patriotism in China and make Chinese direct anger at foreigners instead of problems with Chinese government
jimbob45 6y ago
I vehemently disagree. The duplicitous play would be to create a competitor and cheat by throttling TT, spreading falsehoods about TT, and banning TT to get Americans to use it instead of TT. Paying China fair market price for their company is the cleanest play there is.
azinman2 6y ago
China has actively banned major US companies like Google for a long time now. It's clear that they've never been interested in 'playing fair' and this is the first time the US is actually standing up for its own companies and security concerns. I'm no Trump admin fan, but I do support taking a stand against the asymmetry that's happened for a long time now.
crystaln 6y ago
You obviously don't have much experience with China. China is an authoritarian state and all companies are subject to secret control by the state, essentially branches of the military. There is no legal recourse or protection from such intervention. The government can mandate spy code be inserted and any data they want. You're well intended here, but ignorant of how China operates. There is literally no way to enforce what you suggest.
- justicezyx 6y ago
  > China is an authoritarian state and all companies are subject to secret control by the state, essentially branches of the military. Jumping from authoritarian state, to "all companies are subject to secrete control by the state", that is already a quantum leap. If you believe what Soviet Union's state controlled economy collapsed, because it's impossible for state to control that much of details of the economy, then you must be having a great faith in Mr. Xijinping being a literal Super human, who can control "all companies". Then to "branches of the military"?! Now you are saying that Mr. Xi Jingping is just a puppet of the military?! And Chinese military is so brilliant that they not even developed a powerful military force second only to US & Russian, and meanwhile, they actually runs "all companies"?! I just cannot see any logic in this short statement...
  - biggestdecision 6y ago
    Companies in China have Party Committees, appointed by the government. These committees have oversight over how the company operates, and how the board is appointed. The Chinese government has a strong direct influence inside Chinese businesses, that isn't present in the rest of the world.
    - justicezyx 6y ago
      Please give me a link, I haven't heard of such organization recently... Edit: Note that CCP does ensure private firms provide support for employees who are also party member to organize relevant activity. State-owned company obviously has party committee, and except great control on personnel, like kind of a board.
xster 6y ago
> US would lose its last bit of moral high ground in China, the spirit of free market and rule by law. No it won't change a thing. And to be fair, forcing a sell (which is just forcing it to exit all stakes in the US market) is a far cleaner move than trying to end the company globally like it's doing for Huawei. > This act is pure bullying and imperialism. This is nothing compared to overthrowing Iran's democratic government to instate a puppet monarchy, helping the despot build 23 nuclear power plants, losing the puppet to revolution because the CIA assisted secret police killed too many people, claiming the built power plants are evidence of nuclear ambitions, sanctioning the country against UN resolutions, then using the economic aggression as justification to chain imperialize against other people such as Meng Wanzhou who was arrested unlike the CFOs of Banco do Brasil, Bank of America, Bank of Guam, Bank of Moscow, Bank of Tokyo-Mitsubishi, Barclays, BNP Paribas, Clearstream Banking, Commerzbank, Compass, Crédit Agricole, Deutsche Bank, HSBC, ING, Intesa Sanpaolo, JP Morgan Chase, National Bank of Abu Dhabi, National Bank of Pakistan, PayPal, RBS, Société Générale, Toronto-Dominion Bank, Trans-Pacific National Bank, Standard Chartered, Wells Fargo, Ericsson, Nokia who all transact with Iran. And this is an arrest based on the accusation that she did not disclose (she did, on page 6 of her HSBC powerpoint) Huawei's transactions with Iran in her HSBC loan. The same HSBC with a non-arrested CFO who transacted with Iran and whose drug trafficking heat from the US magically disappeared after snitching their client. The world will sleep through this like the world slept through the same round of tariffs, executive arrests, banning suppliers and technologies like we did to Japan in the 80s.
- ac29 6y ago
  > helping the despot build 23 nuclear power plants Iran has one nuclear power plant, and it opened in 2011. It was built mostly by the Russians. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushehr_Nuclear_Power_Plant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushehr_Nuclear_Power_Plant
  - xster 6y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_power_stations_in_Iran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_power_stations_in_Iran This is the first sentence By 2012, Iran had roughly 400 power plant units https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_program_of_Iran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_program_of_Iran The Shah approved plans to construct up to 23 nuclear power stations by 2000.[24] In March 1974, the Shah envisioned a time when the world's oil supply would run out, and declared, "Petroleum is a noble material, much too valuable to burn ... We envision producing, as soon as possible, 23,000 megawatts of electricity using nuclear plants."[25] Advertisement from the 1970s by American nuclear-energy companies, using Iran's nuclear program as a marketing ploy US and European companies scrambled to do business in Iran.[26] Bushehr, the first plant, would supply energy to the city of Shiraz. In 1975, the Erlangen/Frankfurt firm Kraftwerk Union AG, a joint venture of Siemens AG and AEG, signed a contract worth $4 to $6 billion to build the pressurized water reactor nuclear power plant. Construction of the two 1,196 MWe, and was to have been completed in 1981.
jjcon 6y ago
> would lose its last bit of moral high ground in China I mean it is no different than the EU requiring US companies to host data in EU data centers. China has banned so many US companies - why is it unfair to retaliate? The use of economic power shouldn’t only be acceptable when done by corporations. Governments with a backbone should use it too (like the EU has done when appropriate)
- billfruit 6y ago
  Banning something unless they/it has provabley broken US laws, merely out of spite and retaliatory motives isn't something that is acceptable in a democracy like the US. Also it appears the 'national security' threat of tik-tok seem way overhyped, it is like a country speaking of Instagram as a national security threat. Neither apple not Google has found TikTok problematic enough to pull it from their app stores. Such claims of threat to 'national security', needs to be viewed with a certain skepticism, as these seems to get easily accepted by US lawmakers without sufficient, dispassionate analysis. Also in general banning apps/services should not be the purview of the government under any reason. Why should the government dictate which apps an individual can use on their own phones/computers?
  - jjcon 6y ago
    > Banning something unless they/it has provabley broken US laws, merely out of spite and retaliatory motives isn't something that is acceptable in a democracy like the US. Why? Stuff like this has happened all the time in plenty of democratic countries across the world. Not sure I see the issue (like my EU example). It’s just a state wielding economic power as opposed to a corporation.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - Leary 6y ago
      EU requires data to be based in the EU. So a US equivalent would be to require data to be based in the US, not banning whatever tickles its fancy. Consistent rule of law allows economic actors to make proper planning and decisions. If the US wants to ban Chinese apps, it should pass a law saying that.
Zafira 6y ago
> the US would lose its last bit of moral high ground in China, the spirit of free market and rule by law The US will continue to shed international credibility so long as we Americans continue to engage and enable mainstream discussion of conspiracy theories and populist applesauce. This Trabant quality excuse of an administration is just a symptom of that. Honestly, I would not be surprised if the sole reason that this executive order is being banded about is because of TikTok users claiming they helped overinflate turnout expectations for that flameout of a rally in Tulsa.
- edoceo 6y ago
  "Trabant" was a pleasant surprise - it's an East German car -https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trabant https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trabant
  - vinay427 6y ago
    That is, I believe, what they were intentionally referring to when they criticized the quality. It doesn't seem to have a great reputation these days.
- ant6n 6y ago
  Hey, no shitting on the Trabbi!
tly_alex 6y ago
It's extraordinary to see an once open and welcoming governement to become xenophobic and ruleless. In the last 10 years, when things like this happen in other country, you would hear POTUS or media condemn this kind of action by referring to an once sacred word like "law" and "due process". Just like the double standard on delaying the election, it's ok to delay election due to COVID in US, but it's perfectly fine to condemn other places for doing the same. It would be very interesting to see how how ppl or historian view this 10 years later.
- garceus 6y ago
  Good points, there are definite examples of double standards regarding US and its portrayal of rival countries like China
ktln2 6y ago
This is giving China a taste of it's own medicine - pretty sure EU or Japan would love to see this given the treatment of their companies in China.
summerlight 6y ago
> you set rules and law and enforce them. That is what China is doing. Except the law is essentially "whatever CCP wants to do" since the only political entity which can affect its legislation process is CCP. And yes, it's intentionally vague so it can allow CCP to exercise its power in an arbitrary way.
kiba 6y ago
The Chinese have their firewall, censoring anything that the regime doesn't like. This not only muffle the criticism of your citizens, but also criticisms of the American people and the rest of the world. This is for tit for tat. The United States is an open society. Why should we let an authoritarian regime gains influence over my country?
- pacija 6y ago
  Indeed comrade. The best way to remain an open society is by shielding ourselves from those evil authoritarians. With our firewall, of course.

by fqye 6y ago

actuator 6y ago

Honestly, you have some valid points and this bullying by forcing it to be sold is bad. I think the fear is the manipulation that social media platforms can easily do of discourse and emotions. This is not as simple as just selling word processing software. We have seen manipulation on US's own social media platforms by actors not even inside the company. Imagine a government which has supreme control on the companies on its own soil, imagine what it can do. I would say the fear is well founded, the solution to is not. In case of the companies under free governments and justice systems, this becomes hard as any FB employee can go out and use the free press to expose if any manipulation like this is ordered.

nujabe 6y ago

What an embarrassingly delusional comment! And quite deceptive too. China, under no circumstances, no matter where the data is stored will allow Facebook or any other social/news media to have a presence in their country. What part of reciprocity do you not understand?

fqye 6y ago
Bing is accessible from China. FB and Twitter must comply with censorship rules and storage of user data in China, among other things, to operate in China. Google was operating and accessible in China until China made clear the rules for them to follow. Google decided it couldn't follow they they pulled out the search engine business from China. China didn't force Google to sell. Censorship is bad but that is another issue. And to do personal attack doesn't make you look smart.
- nujabe 6y ago
  Dang, every one of this user's posts is defending the CCP. I think you've mentioned something about 'single purpose accounts' not being allowed. I kindly ask you take a look at this. As for your comment fqye, it is not even worthy of a response.
  - fqye 6y ago
    So what? If CCP isn't allowed to be defended here, isn't this place exactly what CCP is?
    - nujabe 6y ago
      It is against the rules to have an account, such as yours, whose only purpose is to defend the CCP.
      - haecceity 6y ago
        He has such an account because he wants to remain anonymous because views such as his are such that people like you would censor and ostracize him. Such is the hypocrisy of one who cries for freedom and free speech.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]

Nightshaxx 6y ago

The accusations against China is that they do not follow the rules. Stealing IP is very illegal in the US but that didn't (allegedly) stop Waweii. So just saying "make more rules" is not a valid solution if the accusations are true. Byte dance already does store data in the US, but the only way to 100% prove they aren't sending data to China is to regularly audit ISP logs.

fqye 6y ago
It is fair to accuse China of anything. It is the actions the government or law makers take that matter. I think Trump administration is them problem. It is amazing to see how much a single term of an irrational president could damage a country in almost every aspects.
russli1993 6y ago
Are you talking about Huawei? If there is IP and IP infringement why not sue the company? I thought there is tons of cases of IP lawsuits each year? Huawei has operations in many markets like Europe with strong rule of law, sue Huawei in Europe. There are two law suits against Huawei from Cisco and T-Mobile. The first case both parties settled out of court. Second case is about a phone test arm, and already settled after ruling by courts. Huawei's main technology, and where U.S. gov has a problem with is with 5G. Huawei actually has a lot of patients in 5G. Many companies licences their technology. If there is a legitimate case of IP theft, then sue the company. TikTok is operated by the TikTok office in the U.S. ByteDance is incorporated in Cayman islands so Chinese laws do not have any jurisdiction over TikTok office. There is no way for Chinese government to force their censorship rules and steal data from TikTok data stored in the US. Unless tiktok employees in the US office hands the data to China. But TikTok employees in the US office are all American. The CEO of TikTok is Kevin Mayer. The content regulation team is staffed with American employees. Data is stored in US servers and backed up in Singapore. TikTok is hiring more in the US office to develop TikTok going forward. TikTok also plans to experts can observe our moderation policies in real-time, as well as examine the actual code that drives our algorithms. Source: https://newsroom.tiktok.com/en-us/fair-competition-and-transparency-benefits-us-all https://newsroom.tiktok.com/en-us/fair-competition-and-trans... Source: Bytedance corporate structure https://www.bytedance.com/en https://www.bytedance.com/en But the US gov is not giving TikTok any opportunity to explain themselves. Whatever Bytedance management can do, there is no way for them to shake off the belief that TikTok sends data to the US government. As for ByteDance, the founder of Bytedance is a Chinese national. But the board member also includes non Chinese people. Chinese people do not all agree with the government. And Chinese people definitely do not want to work for or help the government unless absolutely required under Chinese law. Chinese people enjoy freedom and distance from Chinese government as well. A lot of Chinese people admire the US for its rule of law, its innovation and the general classiness when doing things. This is especially true in the entrepreneur and technology scene in China, where the US is often looked up to. People want to be friendly. No one wants to undermine the U.S. No one wants to be associated with the government or work as a spy to steal data. I have been following the creation and growth of tiktok and douyin since the beginning. There are many interviews and news story about the company and the founders. The creation of tiktok is to spread happiness, creativity, raw human ingenuity through music, dances and user generated video. And all the founder wanted to do is develop a business from that and earn money from that. They worked really hard to develop the product, the marketing and the user base. The least they wanted is to be tied with politics, ideology wars, fake news, disinformation, political propaganda. The founder, zhang yiming, is a technologists and software engineer, not a politician, not a ccp ideologist. He has always displayed a general likeness and admiration towards the US since the beginning. I mean, why won't he? He studied C++, Javascript, big data, coding for IOS and Android. All of that comes from the U.S. And he has collaborated with US business people since the beginning. I guess his friendliness and admiration to US is why he entered the US market, step up office in the US and hired US employees. But now they are caught between politics in China, ideology battle, and geopolitics.They are seeing their hard work going down the drain, and asking themselves "Probably my biggest crime is born in mainland China". No matter what they do, they cant shake off people's belief that they work for the Chinese government. Its a profound feeling of hopelessness.

ipsum2 6y ago

I was going to make a similar comment, but I think your comment is a little exaggerated. Freedom of speech is still differentiates the US and China.

fqye 6y ago
I am not exaggerating about the US losing it credibility in China. The US was really the shining city on the hill before 2008 financial crisis. I personally was huge admirer of the US system. I even spent about 1 year in DC just to study the political system of the US. Before the 2008 financial crisis, China tried to copy everything from the US, from finanical market regulations to education system and to some degree, political system reform. There was a period when academics and even some very senior CCP members called for small government, separation of party and administrative system, and they even used the term 'put power into cages'. The 2008 financial crisis that started in the US made China's elites within the party and outside of the party think hard if the US system is really the answer. Trump administration, the handling of covid-19 and the BLM protests further changed the view towards the US and made it impossible for those friendly with the US to promote the US value system in China now. Tiktok is considered a national pride because it thrives by open competition in the US and the world. This act of forced selling without a due process for Tiktok to defend itself from accusation of spying for China would absolutely be another huge blow to the credibility of the US in China.
- throwaway189262 6y ago
  Do you not realize it was Xi and his propaganda that caused a massive change in opinion of the west? The state news agencies constantly blames everything on foreigners and the west. It has nothing to do with financial crises or BLM or whatever. Financial crisis also happened in 2001 and 80's, they happen all the time. BLM protests are insignificant, US has protests constantly because they are not restricted by government. Handling of COVID is bad, and most of us don't like Trump. But Xi's anti west propaganda is very real and influences all Chinese news and social media. Xi has massively ramped up rhetoric against the west and especially US. That is why majority of Chinese don't respect the US anymore. You can see Xi saber rattling with US, building basesin South China Sea. Troop fights with India. Bullshit with Tibet Dali llama. Uighur re-education camps. Crackdown on Hong Kong. There's many more. This is why relations with US are going bad. Xi is pissing everyone off to drum up patriotism in China and make Chinese direct anger at foreigners instead of problems with Chinese government

jimbob45 6y ago

I vehemently disagree. The duplicitous play would be to create a competitor and cheat by throttling TT, spreading falsehoods about TT, and banning TT to get Americans to use it instead of TT. Paying China fair market price for their company is the cleanest play there is.

azinman2 6y ago

China has actively banned major US companies like Google for a long time now. It's clear that they've never been interested in 'playing fair' and this is the first time the US is actually standing up for its own companies and security concerns. I'm no Trump admin fan, but I do support taking a stand against the asymmetry that's happened for a long time now.

crystaln 6y ago

You obviously don't have much experience with China. China is an authoritarian state and all companies are subject to secret control by the state, essentially branches of the military. There is no legal recourse or protection from such intervention. The government can mandate spy code be inserted and any data they want. You're well intended here, but ignorant of how China operates. There is literally no way to enforce what you suggest.

justicezyx 6y ago
> China is an authoritarian state and all companies are subject to secret control by the state, essentially branches of the military. Jumping from authoritarian state, to "all companies are subject to secrete control by the state", that is already a quantum leap. If you believe what Soviet Union's state controlled economy collapsed, because it's impossible for state to control that much of details of the economy, then you must be having a great faith in Mr. Xijinping being a literal Super human, who can control "all companies". Then to "branches of the military"?! Now you are saying that Mr. Xi Jingping is just a puppet of the military?! And Chinese military is so brilliant that they not even developed a powerful military force second only to US & Russian, and meanwhile, they actually runs "all companies"?! I just cannot see any logic in this short statement...
- biggestdecision 6y ago
  Companies in China have Party Committees, appointed by the government. These committees have oversight over how the company operates, and how the board is appointed. The Chinese government has a strong direct influence inside Chinese businesses, that isn't present in the rest of the world.
  - justicezyx 6y ago
    Please give me a link, I haven't heard of such organization recently... Edit: Note that CCP does ensure private firms provide support for employees who are also party member to organize relevant activity. State-owned company obviously has party committee, and except great control on personnel, like kind of a board.

xster 6y ago

> US would lose its last bit of moral high ground in China, the spirit of free market and rule by law. No it won't change a thing. And to be fair, forcing a sell (which is just forcing it to exit all stakes in the US market) is a far cleaner move than trying to end the company globally like it's doing for Huawei. > This act is pure bullying and imperialism. This is nothing compared to overthrowing Iran's democratic government to instate a puppet monarchy, helping the despot build 23 nuclear power plants, losing the puppet to revolution because the CIA assisted secret police killed too many people, claiming the built power plants are evidence of nuclear ambitions, sanctioning the country against UN resolutions, then using the economic aggression as justification to chain imperialize against other people such as Meng Wanzhou who was arrested unlike the CFOs of Banco do Brasil, Bank of America, Bank of Guam, Bank of Moscow, Bank of Tokyo-Mitsubishi, Barclays, BNP Paribas, Clearstream Banking, Commerzbank, Compass, Crédit Agricole, Deutsche Bank, HSBC, ING, Intesa Sanpaolo, JP Morgan Chase, National Bank of Abu Dhabi, National Bank of Pakistan, PayPal, RBS, Société Générale, Toronto-Dominion Bank, Trans-Pacific National Bank, Standard Chartered, Wells Fargo, Ericsson, Nokia who all transact with Iran. And this is an arrest based on the accusation that she did not disclose (she did, on page 6 of her HSBC powerpoint) Huawei's transactions with Iran in her HSBC loan. The same HSBC with a non-arrested CFO who transacted with Iran and whose drug trafficking heat from the US magically disappeared after snitching their client. The world will sleep through this like the world slept through the same round of tariffs, executive arrests, banning suppliers and technologies like we did to Japan in the 80s.

ac29 6y ago
> helping the despot build 23 nuclear power plants Iran has one nuclear power plant, and it opened in 2011. It was built mostly by the Russians. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushehr_Nuclear_Power_Plant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushehr_Nuclear_Power_Plant
- xster 6y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_power_stations_in_Iran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_power_stations_in_Iran This is the first sentence By 2012, Iran had roughly 400 power plant units https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_program_of_Iran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_program_of_Iran The Shah approved plans to construct up to 23 nuclear power stations by 2000.[24] In March 1974, the Shah envisioned a time when the world's oil supply would run out, and declared, "Petroleum is a noble material, much too valuable to burn ... We envision producing, as soon as possible, 23,000 megawatts of electricity using nuclear plants."[25] Advertisement from the 1970s by American nuclear-energy companies, using Iran's nuclear program as a marketing ploy US and European companies scrambled to do business in Iran.[26] Bushehr, the first plant, would supply energy to the city of Shiraz. In 1975, the Erlangen/Frankfurt firm Kraftwerk Union AG, a joint venture of Siemens AG and AEG, signed a contract worth $4 to $6 billion to build the pressurized water reactor nuclear power plant. Construction of the two 1,196 MWe, and was to have been completed in 1981.

jjcon 6y ago

> would lose its last bit of moral high ground in China I mean it is no different than the EU requiring US companies to host data in EU data centers. China has banned so many US companies - why is it unfair to retaliate? The use of economic power shouldn’t only be acceptable when done by corporations. Governments with a backbone should use it too (like the EU has done when appropriate)

billfruit 6y ago
Banning something unless they/it has provabley broken US laws, merely out of spite and retaliatory motives isn't something that is acceptable in a democracy like the US. Also it appears the 'national security' threat of tik-tok seem way overhyped, it is like a country speaking of Instagram as a national security threat. Neither apple not Google has found TikTok problematic enough to pull it from their app stores. Such claims of threat to 'national security', needs to be viewed with a certain skepticism, as these seems to get easily accepted by US lawmakers without sufficient, dispassionate analysis. Also in general banning apps/services should not be the purview of the government under any reason. Why should the government dictate which apps an individual can use on their own phones/computers?
- jjcon 6y ago
  > Banning something unless they/it has provabley broken US laws, merely out of spite and retaliatory motives isn't something that is acceptable in a democracy like the US. Why? Stuff like this has happened all the time in plenty of democratic countries across the world. Not sure I see the issue (like my EU example). It’s just a state wielding economic power as opposed to a corporation.
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  - Leary 6y ago
    EU requires data to be based in the EU. So a US equivalent would be to require data to be based in the US, not banning whatever tickles its fancy. Consistent rule of law allows economic actors to make proper planning and decisions. If the US wants to ban Chinese apps, it should pass a law saying that.

Zafira 6y ago

> the US would lose its last bit of moral high ground in China, the spirit of free market and rule by law The US will continue to shed international credibility so long as we Americans continue to engage and enable mainstream discussion of conspiracy theories and populist applesauce. This Trabant quality excuse of an administration is just a symptom of that. Honestly, I would not be surprised if the sole reason that this executive order is being banded about is because of TikTok users claiming they helped overinflate turnout expectations for that flameout of a rally in Tulsa.

edoceo 6y ago
"Trabant" was a pleasant surprise - it's an East German car -https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trabant https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trabant
- vinay427 6y ago
  That is, I believe, what they were intentionally referring to when they criticized the quality. It doesn't seem to have a great reputation these days.
ant6n 6y ago
Hey, no shitting on the Trabbi!

tly_alex 6y ago

It's extraordinary to see an once open and welcoming governement to become xenophobic and ruleless. In the last 10 years, when things like this happen in other country, you would hear POTUS or media condemn this kind of action by referring to an once sacred word like "law" and "due process". Just like the double standard on delaying the election, it's ok to delay election due to COVID in US, but it's perfectly fine to condemn other places for doing the same. It would be very interesting to see how how ppl or historian view this 10 years later.

garceus 6y ago
Good points, there are definite examples of double standards regarding US and its portrayal of rival countries like China

ktln2 6y ago

This is giving China a taste of it's own medicine - pretty sure EU or Japan would love to see this given the treatment of their companies in China.

summerlight 6y ago

> you set rules and law and enforce them. That is what China is doing. Except the law is essentially "whatever CCP wants to do" since the only political entity which can affect its legislation process is CCP. And yes, it's intentionally vague so it can allow CCP to exercise its power in an arbitrary way.

kiba 6y ago

The Chinese have their firewall, censoring anything that the regime doesn't like. This not only muffle the criticism of your citizens, but also criticisms of the American people and the rest of the world. This is for tit for tat. The United States is an open society. Why should we let an authoritarian regime gains influence over my country?

pacija 6y ago
Indeed comrade. The best way to remain an open society is by shielding ourselves from those evil authoritarians. With our firewall, of course.