6 ms·

Beyond the security of not giving our credit cards, and the convenience of not having 8 different game updater/launcher clients, Apple’s App Store policies also

Beyond the security of not giving our credit cards, and the convenience of not having 8 different game updater/launcher clients, Apple’s App Store policies also limit 3rd party software’s ability to fuck up my devices in a myriad of ways. If they’re forced to open up to 3rd party stores, I hope they can do it in a way that prevents Adobe from running 8 background processes to make sure my license is current and there aren’t any font updates to download and to make Reader launch faster by keeping it in memory all the time, or whatever it is they do with their Creative Cloud client stuff.

admax88q 6y ago
An operating system that actually empowered you would give you the tools and options to prevent that, while also letting you run whatever software you desired. I will never understand people's desire to be handcuffed by Apple. Give me control over my own device god damn it.
- aeurielesn 6y ago
  Rest assured that despite the somehow surprisingly recent blind support for Apple here, there are people too that want to own our devices. I can just hope that the EU is successful in stopping all of Apple's trickeries ranging from 2.5mm headset jacks, ports, OS slow downs, mysterious battery underperformance, app store, the list just goes on.
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    > I can just hope that the EU is successful in stopping all of Apple's trickeries ranging from 2.5mm headset jacks, ports, OS slow downs, mysterious battery underperformance Entirely unrelated, and it's 3.5 mm by the way.
    - wlesieutre 6y ago
      2.5mm jacks exist but iOS devices have never used them. I think some feature phones did that back in the day. Personally I've only encountered them on a pair of headphones where they're a step up from a soldered on cable, but more annoying than a standard jack would be. It's also recessed really far in with a very narrow twist-lock connector, so isn't compatible with any cables except the special one it comes with.
  - xvector 6y ago
    > headset jacks You want the EU to regulate whether a company wants to put a headphone jack in their devices? > OS slow downs iOS has gotten faster over time [1]. > mysterious battery underperformance It's common knowledge that this was an honest engineering mistake because as a phone ages, the battery cannot support the max voltage of the processor. Apple now lets you enable full performance with the understanding that your phone might shut down on you when you need it most. > app store Which we've determined not to be a monopoly as Apple is a minority player in the mobile device space. > the list just goes on. So you've suggested 4 things, 3 of which don't apply and 1 of which (headphone jacks) would be gross governmental overreach. It seems to me that you just want the company to burn and you want the EU to regulate the hell out of everything in your life. For example, deciding whether I want to put a headphone jack on my next device is my choice, not the EU's choice, and it would be tyrannical and innovation-stifling to let them have a say over something like that. It is very reasonable for you to just buy something else if you don't like an Apple device, since Apple is not a monopoly in the mobile space. However, neither you nor the government should have the right to force Apple to develop a product you like. Apple does not exist to satisfy your whims. [1]: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/09/ios-13-the-ars-technica-review/6/#h2 https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/09/ios-13-the-ars-techn...
    - Apocryphon 6y ago
      > You want the EU to regulate whether a company wants to put a headphone jack in their devices? > So you've suggested 4 things, 3 of which don't apply and 1 of which (headphone jacks) would be gross governmental overreach. There is precedence for the EU mandating Apple change their hardware practices: https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidphelan/2020/02/11/apple-challenges-europes-mooted-lightning-cable-ban/#461176df12f2 https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidphelan/2020/02/11/apple-ch... > So you've suggested 4 things, 3 of which don't apply and 1 of which (headphone jacks) would be gross governmental overreach. Here's a 5th one: https://www.macrumors.com/2020/05/29/tile-writes-to-eu-accusing-apple-of-abuse-of-power/ https://www.macrumors.com/2020/05/29/tile-writes-to-eu-accus...
      - xvector 6y ago
        In your first source: letting the EU regulate the charging cable would have been provably dumb and absurd. Lightning was years ahead of Micro-USB when it was released and served as inspiration for USB-C. Just another example of how government overregulation would harm innovation and industries. The second source is Tile complaining about the privacy warnings in iOS 13. It’s laughable. Customers are turning off abusive always-on surveillance thanks to iOS 13 notifications and this is hurting Tile. Working as intended.
- threatofrain 6y ago
  Whether you take out your own garbage or Apple does it it’s still garbage for you to clean up. Some people want to throw money at Apple to take care of the garbage for them. If you give apps the right not to do things like AppleID they’ll take it and the App Store would be a highly inconsistent experience for people who want to do no thinking about how their device works. There ought to be some middle ground but consumers are the ones who will have their boundaries encroached unless an entity ruthlessly minds the border... For the degree of opening you leave companies will extract that much concession from your users.
- manicdee 6y ago
  If you want to work on your ultimate phone environment as a hobby, there is Android. If you want things to work just the way they are with the fewest surprises and least amount of finagling use Apple. I use macOS instead of Linux for this reason: last time I tried updating the production packages on a Linux box it took me hours to clean up the mess that X11 left behind. Don’t criticise my walled garden just because you want to experiment with weed salad in your community garden.
  - admax88q 6y ago
    Whether a system "just works" or it requires finagling is or should be an orthogonal discussion to whether it respects you as a user. Its reasonable to ask for both.
    - manicdee 6y ago
      My walled garden respects me as a user, but I am the kind of user the walled garden is maintained for.
Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
You can run third party apps and Steam on macOS-equipped laptop computers just fine. Why it should be any different on pocket or tablet iOS computers?
- wlesieutre 6y ago
  I appreciate that iOS does not allow software to require this. Yes you can avoid the giant mess of 3rd party launchers on Mac, but only by writing off huge swaths of the software market. Want to run Photoshop? You get to have the Creative Cloud client. The current state of iOS software is that I never have to go into Task Manager and see what junk has inserted itself as a startup item, whether anything will break if I don't want its update/license client running in the background, or worry about whether it really quits when I quit it or tries to stay resident in the system tray.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
    The current state of iOS software is that you can't run Signal in China. Or torrent client anywhere.
    - xvector 6y ago
      Okay, and why is it your fundamental right to be able to do either of those? On what basis should a company be compelled to implement that functionality? You can always buy a device that allows you to do those things, after all. It's not like Apple is the only device vendor out there, or even a majority device vendor.
      - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
        Because if I own the device, manufacturer should not decide what kind of apps I can run. See: a user in China owns the iPhone and wants to run the app. Apps developer wants a user to run the app. And only Apple doesn't let it happen, on the device that it doesn't own anymore. Regarding your argument, "do not buy it", of course I don't buy it! But that doesn't make this position of Apple right, and I'm glad that lawmakers might put an end to this malicious practice. Returning your argument, if Apple wants to control what users do with the iPhones, perhaps they shouldn't give up their ownership of devices and shouldn't sell them.
Silhouette 6y ago
the convenience of not having 8 different game updater/launcher clients Obligatory glance over at Steam goes here. Apple’s App Store policies also limit 3rd party software’s ability to fuck up my devices in a myriad of ways. It would be a much safer solution if Apple's operating system limited 3rd party software's ability to do things it shouldn't. Trying to filter malware at the app store level might improve your odds, but it's not a robust, scalable solution to malware and it never has been.
- wlesieutre 6y ago
  > Obligatory glance over at Steam goes here. • Steam (Valve) • Uplay (Ubisoft) • Origin (EA) • Epic (Epic) • Galaxy (CDProjekt) • LoL Launcher (Riot) • Battle.net (Blizzard) • Twitch (Amazon) • Minecraft Launcher (Mojang) Probably others I'm missing. Can't wait to have a whole home screen dedicated to different app stores because each one has a single exclusive game that I wanted to play
  - Silhouette 6y ago
    So why not build a standard mechanism to install and update 3rd party software into the OS? It's hardly a radical idea. There are plenty of solutions to that problem that don't involve monopolising the distribution of all software on the platform.
    - wlesieutre 6y ago
      I agree in principle that this would be OK, except part of Apple's vetting processes is making sure apps aren't accessing private APIs. I don't want to download a game and find out that it's secretly spinning up a background spyware process to monitor the screenbuffer and sending the screenshots off to god knows where.
      - Apocryphon 6y ago
        Presently, security researchers are already finding both major apps doing this on the Apple App Store (Facebook accessing the camera on the News Feed), and spyware apps happening on secondary Android stores (also on the official Play Store). Sounds like an opportunity for more security watchdog businesses.
krzyk 6y ago
> Apple’s App Store policies also limit 3rd party software’s ability to fuck up my devices in a myriad of ways. And also makes apps like Tasker impossible, which from my side of the table is too much. There should be a button somewhere in iOS called "safety belts off" and I should be able to do anything to a device I bought.

admax88q 6y ago

An operating system that actually empowered you would give you the tools and options to prevent that, while also letting you run whatever software you desired. I will never understand people's desire to be handcuffed by Apple. Give me control over my own device god damn it.

aeurielesn 6y ago
Rest assured that despite the somehow surprisingly recent blind support for Apple here, there are people too that want to own our devices. I can just hope that the EU is successful in stopping all of Apple's trickeries ranging from 2.5mm headset jacks, ports, OS slow downs, mysterious battery underperformance, app store, the list just goes on.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  > I can just hope that the EU is successful in stopping all of Apple's trickeries ranging from 2.5mm headset jacks, ports, OS slow downs, mysterious battery underperformance Entirely unrelated, and it's 3.5 mm by the way.
  - wlesieutre 6y ago
    2.5mm jacks exist but iOS devices have never used them. I think some feature phones did that back in the day. Personally I've only encountered them on a pair of headphones where they're a step up from a soldered on cable, but more annoying than a standard jack would be. It's also recessed really far in with a very narrow twist-lock connector, so isn't compatible with any cables except the special one it comes with.
- xvector 6y ago
  > headset jacks You want the EU to regulate whether a company wants to put a headphone jack in their devices? > OS slow downs iOS has gotten faster over time [1]. > mysterious battery underperformance It's common knowledge that this was an honest engineering mistake because as a phone ages, the battery cannot support the max voltage of the processor. Apple now lets you enable full performance with the understanding that your phone might shut down on you when you need it most. > app store Which we've determined not to be a monopoly as Apple is a minority player in the mobile device space. > the list just goes on. So you've suggested 4 things, 3 of which don't apply and 1 of which (headphone jacks) would be gross governmental overreach. It seems to me that you just want the company to burn and you want the EU to regulate the hell out of everything in your life. For example, deciding whether I want to put a headphone jack on my next device is my choice, not the EU's choice, and it would be tyrannical and innovation-stifling to let them have a say over something like that. It is very reasonable for you to just buy something else if you don't like an Apple device, since Apple is not a monopoly in the mobile space. However, neither you nor the government should have the right to force Apple to develop a product you like. Apple does not exist to satisfy your whims. [1]: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/09/ios-13-the-ars-technica-review/6/#h2 https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/09/ios-13-the-ars-techn...
  - Apocryphon 6y ago
    > You want the EU to regulate whether a company wants to put a headphone jack in their devices? > So you've suggested 4 things, 3 of which don't apply and 1 of which (headphone jacks) would be gross governmental overreach. There is precedence for the EU mandating Apple change their hardware practices: https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidphelan/2020/02/11/apple-challenges-europes-mooted-lightning-cable-ban/#461176df12f2 https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidphelan/2020/02/11/apple-ch... > So you've suggested 4 things, 3 of which don't apply and 1 of which (headphone jacks) would be gross governmental overreach. Here's a 5th one: https://www.macrumors.com/2020/05/29/tile-writes-to-eu-accusing-apple-of-abuse-of-power/ https://www.macrumors.com/2020/05/29/tile-writes-to-eu-accus...
    - xvector 6y ago
      In your first source: letting the EU regulate the charging cable would have been provably dumb and absurd. Lightning was years ahead of Micro-USB when it was released and served as inspiration for USB-C. Just another example of how government overregulation would harm innovation and industries. The second source is Tile complaining about the privacy warnings in iOS 13. It’s laughable. Customers are turning off abusive always-on surveillance thanks to iOS 13 notifications and this is hurting Tile. Working as intended.
threatofrain 6y ago
Whether you take out your own garbage or Apple does it it’s still garbage for you to clean up. Some people want to throw money at Apple to take care of the garbage for them. If you give apps the right not to do things like AppleID they’ll take it and the App Store would be a highly inconsistent experience for people who want to do no thinking about how their device works. There ought to be some middle ground but consumers are the ones who will have their boundaries encroached unless an entity ruthlessly minds the border... For the degree of opening you leave companies will extract that much concession from your users.
manicdee 6y ago
If you want to work on your ultimate phone environment as a hobby, there is Android. If you want things to work just the way they are with the fewest surprises and least amount of finagling use Apple. I use macOS instead of Linux for this reason: last time I tried updating the production packages on a Linux box it took me hours to clean up the mess that X11 left behind. Don’t criticise my walled garden just because you want to experiment with weed salad in your community garden.
- admax88q 6y ago
  Whether a system "just works" or it requires finagling is or should be an orthogonal discussion to whether it respects you as a user. Its reasonable to ask for both.
  - manicdee 6y ago
    My walled garden respects me as a user, but I am the kind of user the walled garden is maintained for.

Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago

You can run third party apps and Steam on macOS-equipped laptop computers just fine. Why it should be any different on pocket or tablet iOS computers?

wlesieutre 6y ago
I appreciate that iOS does not allow software to require this. Yes you can avoid the giant mess of 3rd party launchers on Mac, but only by writing off huge swaths of the software market. Want to run Photoshop? You get to have the Creative Cloud client. The current state of iOS software is that I never have to go into Task Manager and see what junk has inserted itself as a startup item, whether anything will break if I don't want its update/license client running in the background, or worry about whether it really quits when I quit it or tries to stay resident in the system tray.
- Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
  The current state of iOS software is that you can't run Signal in China. Or torrent client anywhere.
  - xvector 6y ago
    Okay, and why is it your fundamental right to be able to do either of those? On what basis should a company be compelled to implement that functionality? You can always buy a device that allows you to do those things, after all. It's not like Apple is the only device vendor out there, or even a majority device vendor.
    - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
      Because if I own the device, manufacturer should not decide what kind of apps I can run. See: a user in China owns the iPhone and wants to run the app. Apps developer wants a user to run the app. And only Apple doesn't let it happen, on the device that it doesn't own anymore. Regarding your argument, "do not buy it", of course I don't buy it! But that doesn't make this position of Apple right, and I'm glad that lawmakers might put an end to this malicious practice. Returning your argument, if Apple wants to control what users do with the iPhones, perhaps they shouldn't give up their ownership of devices and shouldn't sell them.

Silhouette 6y ago

the convenience of not having 8 different game updater/launcher clients Obligatory glance over at Steam goes here. Apple’s App Store policies also limit 3rd party software’s ability to fuck up my devices in a myriad of ways. It would be a much safer solution if Apple's operating system limited 3rd party software's ability to do things it shouldn't. Trying to filter malware at the app store level might improve your odds, but it's not a robust, scalable solution to malware and it never has been.

wlesieutre 6y ago
> Obligatory glance over at Steam goes here. • Steam (Valve) • Uplay (Ubisoft) • Origin (EA) • Epic (Epic) • Galaxy (CDProjekt) • LoL Launcher (Riot) • Battle.net (Blizzard) • Twitch (Amazon) • Minecraft Launcher (Mojang) Probably others I'm missing. Can't wait to have a whole home screen dedicated to different app stores because each one has a single exclusive game that I wanted to play
- Silhouette 6y ago
  So why not build a standard mechanism to install and update 3rd party software into the OS? It's hardly a radical idea. There are plenty of solutions to that problem that don't involve monopolising the distribution of all software on the platform.
  - wlesieutre 6y ago
    I agree in principle that this would be OK, except part of Apple's vetting processes is making sure apps aren't accessing private APIs. I don't want to download a game and find out that it's secretly spinning up a background spyware process to monitor the screenbuffer and sending the screenshots off to god knows where.
    - Apocryphon 6y ago
      Presently, security researchers are already finding both major apps doing this on the Apple App Store (Facebook accessing the camera on the News Feed), and spyware apps happening on secondary Android stores (also on the official Play Store). Sounds like an opportunity for more security watchdog businesses.

krzyk 6y ago

> Apple’s App Store policies also limit 3rd party software’s ability to fuck up my devices in a myriad of ways. And also makes apps like Tasker impossible, which from my side of the table is too much. There should be a button somewhere in iOS called "safety belts off" and I should be able to do anything to a device I bought.