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It's my phone, and I can do whatever I want with it. If Apple doesn't like that, they can easily maintain ownership by not selling the device. I don't force A

It's my phone, and I can do whatever I want with it. If Apple doesn't like that, they can easily maintain ownership by not selling the device. I don't force Apple to sell iPhones instead of leaving them in a warehouse. Once I've bought it, it is mine. The entire idea that Apple can do whatever they want on a device that they have already sold is ludicrous.

basch 6y ago
Should a private company be allowed to sell a secure locked down device, with people buying it knowing that you cant 1) modify the bootloader 2) modify the os 3) sideload apps? To many people, the fault you find in the product is the added value that differentiates it from competitors.
CubsFan1060 6y ago
I'm curious, if you didn't like the way it is, why did you buy one? None of these things are new. They've basically been the same since they came out. You largely had a choice of two products. It sounds like one did what you wanted, and one didn't. You bought the one that didn't and now you're unhappy about it. I don't quite understand that.
- p49k 6y ago
  We shouldn’t have to choose between one of two products, each of which is controlled by a giant, unaccountable entity which has its own type of anti-competitive stranglehold on consumers and engages in harmful behavior. It’s pretty clear the only path out of this situation is to rethink antitrust laws in a society where companies have evolved to evade them, and to legislate.
  - scarface74 6y ago
    Apple is very accountable. If users don’t like their products, they can buy an Android. Apple has to give users some reason to pay the Apple premium.
- wayneftw 6y ago
  It doesn’t matter why I bought one. Car manufactures can’t just do whatever they want. They have to follow rules. What’s wrong with people wanting Apple and Google to follow some rules? Having a rule that all smartphones should allow sideloading would not be the end of the world for people who like Apple’s app store. Those people would still have the choice to us it.
  - scarface74 6y ago
    Would you also pass those rules for console makers? Do you also complain that you can’t put gas in a Tesla even though you should have known that it was designed that way? Did you watch the hearing the other day? Do you really trust those people to regulate tech?
  - albertop 6y ago
    No. I actually like the fact there is no sideloading. Why should I be forced to like what you like.
  - CubsFan1060 6y ago
    I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to be argumentative. I just truly don't understand it. It kinda feels like the people that move close to an airport and then complain about air traffic. You knew the deal going in, but you went in anyway. And now you're upset about the choice you made. So what I'm really curious about is why is that? Regardless of the legality beyond it, why did you make a choice you're upset with?
- jsnell 6y ago
  I bought an iPad because mobile Safari is a compatibility nightmare and not available on non-iOS platforms, so I needed it just for debugging and testing. Telling 20% of my users to switch to another browser is not an option either, since the only alternatives are just Safari reskins.
- throwaway34241 6y ago
  > It sounds like one did what you wanted, and one didn't Two products is not a huge number. It seems likely that neither product was exactly what they want, and this is just a particular thing they don't like about iPhones.
scarface74 6y ago
And Apple didn’t force you to buy the phone....
- Apocryphon 6y ago
  Neither did AT&T.
  - scarface74 6y ago
    If you wanted phone service, you had to buy it from AT&T - because of a government granted monopoly.
    - Apocryphon 6y ago
      Funnily enough, the government-granted monopoly only came as a consequence of a sweetheart deal that AT&T cut with the federal government- after the gov't first tried to pursue antitrust to halt AT&T's monopolistic activities: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingsbury_Commitment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingsbury_Commitment
- gramakri 6y ago
  Isn't this an argument against any company/monopoly? No company forced anyone to buy anything.
  - yladiz 6y ago
    This argument only works if there is sufficient competition. I would say that Apple has enough competition to agree with the argument that "you don't have to buy an iPhone".
  - scarface74 6y ago
    How is Apple a “monopoly” with less than 15%? Most people are “forced” to get internet through their cable company because there often isn’t a choice. How many people have to buy a phone that on average is twice as expensive as the alternative and then complain about it?
chrisseaton 6y ago
You can already do whatever you want with your device. Use it as a hammer for all Apple care. It's just that Apple aren't going to spend their time and money developing software to let you do things they aren't interested in. Why should they?
- mathnovice 6y ago
  They don't let you modify the software on the device.
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    Yes they don't want to build and support the functionality for third-party stores. I said you can do whatever you want. I didn't say you can require other people to do what you want, like build software features for you.
  - xvector 6y ago
    And they aren’t obligated to develop workflows that would let you. You can, however, if you figure it out.
- oscargrouch 6y ago
  > It's just that Apple aren't going to spend their time and money developing software to let you do things they aren't interested in. Why should they? They are spending time and money to prevent that. Or you can create an app store as an app and expect Apple to allow your "app store app" to ship in iPhones? The features are already there in the OS, they use them themselves. They dont need to do anything more.. but instead they work to cripple or prevent others from using it. This is in essence the spirit of a monopoly. Ok you personally dont mind for whatever reasons, but there a lot of other harms to the society and civil rights in general going on here. And that was the reason countries and laws exists.. To prevent people or companies in position of power to abuse their power.
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    > And that was the reason countries and laws exists. I disagree I don't think the reason why have countries and laws is so that you can force someone else to support your product when they don't want to.
albertop 6y ago
None forced you to buy iDevice.

basch 6y ago

Should a private company be allowed to sell a secure locked down device, with people buying it knowing that you cant 1) modify the bootloader 2) modify the os 3) sideload apps? To many people, the fault you find in the product is the added value that differentiates it from competitors.

CubsFan1060 6y ago

I'm curious, if you didn't like the way it is, why did you buy one? None of these things are new. They've basically been the same since they came out. You largely had a choice of two products. It sounds like one did what you wanted, and one didn't. You bought the one that didn't and now you're unhappy about it. I don't quite understand that.

p49k 6y ago
We shouldn’t have to choose between one of two products, each of which is controlled by a giant, unaccountable entity which has its own type of anti-competitive stranglehold on consumers and engages in harmful behavior. It’s pretty clear the only path out of this situation is to rethink antitrust laws in a society where companies have evolved to evade them, and to legislate.
- scarface74 6y ago
  Apple is very accountable. If users don’t like their products, they can buy an Android. Apple has to give users some reason to pay the Apple premium.
wayneftw 6y ago
It doesn’t matter why I bought one. Car manufactures can’t just do whatever they want. They have to follow rules. What’s wrong with people wanting Apple and Google to follow some rules? Having a rule that all smartphones should allow sideloading would not be the end of the world for people who like Apple’s app store. Those people would still have the choice to us it.
- scarface74 6y ago
  Would you also pass those rules for console makers? Do you also complain that you can’t put gas in a Tesla even though you should have known that it was designed that way? Did you watch the hearing the other day? Do you really trust those people to regulate tech?
- albertop 6y ago
  No. I actually like the fact there is no sideloading. Why should I be forced to like what you like.
- CubsFan1060 6y ago
  I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to be argumentative. I just truly don't understand it. It kinda feels like the people that move close to an airport and then complain about air traffic. You knew the deal going in, but you went in anyway. And now you're upset about the choice you made. So what I'm really curious about is why is that? Regardless of the legality beyond it, why did you make a choice you're upset with?
jsnell 6y ago
I bought an iPad because mobile Safari is a compatibility nightmare and not available on non-iOS platforms, so I needed it just for debugging and testing. Telling 20% of my users to switch to another browser is not an option either, since the only alternatives are just Safari reskins.
throwaway34241 6y ago
> It sounds like one did what you wanted, and one didn't Two products is not a huge number. It seems likely that neither product was exactly what they want, and this is just a particular thing they don't like about iPhones.

scarface74 6y ago

And Apple didn’t force you to buy the phone....

Apocryphon 6y ago
Neither did AT&T.
- scarface74 6y ago
  If you wanted phone service, you had to buy it from AT&T - because of a government granted monopoly.
  - Apocryphon 6y ago
    Funnily enough, the government-granted monopoly only came as a consequence of a sweetheart deal that AT&T cut with the federal government- after the gov't first tried to pursue antitrust to halt AT&T's monopolistic activities: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingsbury_Commitment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingsbury_Commitment
gramakri 6y ago
Isn't this an argument against any company/monopoly? No company forced anyone to buy anything.
- yladiz 6y ago
  This argument only works if there is sufficient competition. I would say that Apple has enough competition to agree with the argument that "you don't have to buy an iPhone".
- scarface74 6y ago
  How is Apple a “monopoly” with less than 15%? Most people are “forced” to get internet through their cable company because there often isn’t a choice. How many people have to buy a phone that on average is twice as expensive as the alternative and then complain about it?

chrisseaton 6y ago

You can already do whatever you want with your device. Use it as a hammer for all Apple care. It's just that Apple aren't going to spend their time and money developing software to let you do things they aren't interested in. Why should they?

mathnovice 6y ago
They don't let you modify the software on the device.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  Yes they don't want to build and support the functionality for third-party stores. I said you can do whatever you want. I didn't say you can require other people to do what you want, like build software features for you.
- xvector 6y ago
  And they aren’t obligated to develop workflows that would let you. You can, however, if you figure it out.
oscargrouch 6y ago
> It's just that Apple aren't going to spend their time and money developing software to let you do things they aren't interested in. Why should they? They are spending time and money to prevent that. Or you can create an app store as an app and expect Apple to allow your "app store app" to ship in iPhones? The features are already there in the OS, they use them themselves. They dont need to do anything more.. but instead they work to cripple or prevent others from using it. This is in essence the spirit of a monopoly. Ok you personally dont mind for whatever reasons, but there a lot of other harms to the society and civil rights in general going on here. And that was the reason countries and laws exists.. To prevent people or companies in position of power to abuse their power.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  > And that was the reason countries and laws exists. I disagree I don't think the reason why have countries and laws is so that you can force someone else to support your product when they don't want to.

albertop 6y ago

None forced you to buy iDevice.