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This is like saying that gold coins are explicitly designed not to allow recourse and refunds and that transactions in gold are not reversible by any legal auth

This is like saying that gold coins are explicitly designed not to allow recourse and refunds and that transactions in gold are not reversible by any legal authority. In both BTC and solid gold, reversibility is not a property of the currency. It is a part of the system which uses that currency. However, with Bitcoin (unlike with gold) the currency is explicitly designed with verifiable identity being fundamental to every transaction. With Bitcoin, an individual can prove that they participated in a transaction that was later determined to be fraudulent. This is a fact of the currency. It is explicitly built in to Bitcoin at a foundational level. Whether existing systems use that specific aspect of the currency to do anything meaningful is a separate matter. But the fact is that bitcoin itself has more accountability than other currencies. Not less.

SahAssar 6y ago
What I said was "not reversible by legal authority". That's true for both gold coins and bitcoin if the legal authority don't have them to give. I'm not saying bitcoin is less accountable and giving 6000$ in gold coins to a stranger promising to double them would only be slightly more responsible since then you'd at least know a physical jurisdiction. What I'm saying is that when bitcoin X leaves wallet Y to wallet Z the only way to get back X into Y is for the holder of Z to willingly give it, while "normal" digital transactions can be reversed by the transactor or by law. So if you want a transaction to be reversible by law you probably don't want it in bitcoin. Please let me know if I'm wrong.
- shuntress 6y ago
  You are not wrong but you are glossing over the fact that by "digital transactions" you seem to actually mean "transactions brokered by a third party". USD also works the way you describe. I may write someone a check based on a fraudulent premise then later demand my money back. If they have already cashed that check and run then the money is gone from their account and there is no way to reverse the transaction. The bank may charge them, cancel their account, pay me back anyway, etc. These are all actions taken by the third party broker. With USD the accountability of my_account -> check -> fraudsters_account -> cash is all part of the third party's (the bank's) system. With BTC, this chain of accountability (my_wallet -> transaction -> fraudsters_wallet) is part of the currency itself. If the fraudster is later caught and their fraudulent gains seized, with BTC I can prove which of those fraudulent gains came from my wallet and be reimbursed with potentially little technical fuss. My point is that your point may be true of the systems built to handle transactions made with bitcoin but is not true of bitcoin itself.
  - SahAssar 6y ago
    Agreed, but the financial system we have is set up to handle one of those scenarios and not the other. Bitcoin could be as good or better at this use-case, but for now that is not the case.
  - twat 6y ago
    This is such a weird hill to die on
    - shuntress 6y ago
      I was excited by Bitcoin when the whitepaper came out and I just think it's neat. The huge explosion in Bitcoin popularity with daytrader "lambo" jerks led to a ton of people (even technically inclined people) talking about Bitcoin without understanding it too well. So now it sort of sets me off. Plus, it's way easier (and more fun) to fight about something frivolous like Bitcoin than it is to fight about things that are actually important.

SahAssar 6y ago

What I said was "not reversible by legal authority". That's true for both gold coins and bitcoin if the legal authority don't have them to give. I'm not saying bitcoin is less accountable and giving 6000$ in gold coins to a stranger promising to double them would only be slightly more responsible since then you'd at least know a physical jurisdiction. What I'm saying is that when bitcoin X leaves wallet Y to wallet Z the only way to get back X into Y is for the holder of Z to willingly give it, while "normal" digital transactions can be reversed by the transactor or by law. So if you want a transaction to be reversible by law you probably don't want it in bitcoin. Please let me know if I'm wrong.

shuntress 6y ago
You are not wrong but you are glossing over the fact that by "digital transactions" you seem to actually mean "transactions brokered by a third party". USD also works the way you describe. I may write someone a check based on a fraudulent premise then later demand my money back. If they have already cashed that check and run then the money is gone from their account and there is no way to reverse the transaction. The bank may charge them, cancel their account, pay me back anyway, etc. These are all actions taken by the third party broker. With USD the accountability of my_account -> check -> fraudsters_account -> cash is all part of the third party's (the bank's) system. With BTC, this chain of accountability (my_wallet -> transaction -> fraudsters_wallet) is part of the currency itself. If the fraudster is later caught and their fraudulent gains seized, with BTC I can prove which of those fraudulent gains came from my wallet and be reimbursed with potentially little technical fuss. My point is that your point may be true of the systems built to handle transactions made with bitcoin but is not true of bitcoin itself.
- SahAssar 6y ago
  Agreed, but the financial system we have is set up to handle one of those scenarios and not the other. Bitcoin could be as good or better at this use-case, but for now that is not the case.
- twat 6y ago
  This is such a weird hill to die on
  - shuntress 6y ago
    I was excited by Bitcoin when the whitepaper came out and I just think it's neat. The huge explosion in Bitcoin popularity with daytrader "lambo" jerks led to a ton of people (even technically inclined people) talking about Bitcoin without understanding it too well. So now it sort of sets me off. Plus, it's way easier (and more fun) to fight about something frivolous like Bitcoin than it is to fight about things that are actually important.