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> asserting that he's right and people who see it otherwise are straight up wrong. That seems to be the same thing his opponents are saying about his positions

by Udik 6y ago

> asserting that he's right and people who see it otherwise are straight up wrong. That seems to be the same thing his opponents are saying about his positions. So do you maintain the same attitude towards them?

DoreenMichele 6y ago
If true, I'm guessing I would. I have a long history of saying "All y'all are wrong and both sides need to quit this crap." My mother always said "Two wrongs don't make a right."
- Udik 6y ago
  It's definitely true- after all we're talking about people who stalked him and his (potential) employers because of how wrong he is. On the other hand, science is about finding truths. It needs to be flexible to replace old truths with new ones, but that doesn't mean that each single scientist must be flexible. It's fine for scientists to be absolutely convinced of the value of their theories and to defend them the best they can. After all, it has been said that science advances one funeral at a time. Scientists can be (and have been, historically, in various cases) giant assholes.
  - DoreenMichele 6y ago
    I don't really know the whole story. I'm guilty of not even reading the entire article. I'm a woman on the internet. I have had my fair share of mansplaining assholes let me know that I'm wrong and stupid and have zero right to have a personal opinion about my own life, so I didn't have a lot of patience for this piece. But given the topic, I'm guessing he was stalked and harassed by people for whom this topic is a survival issue. So they did their best to make it a survival issue for him. That doesn't make them right, not by any stretch of the imagination. But trans rights are not about mere scientific opinion. It's a political battle and lives are at stake. Among other things, LGBTQ individuals are at very high risk of homelessness and homeless individuals have a life expectancy that's about two decades shorter than average.
    - rbecker 6y ago
      > But given the topic, I'm guessing he was stalked and harassed by people for whom this topic is a survival issue. So they did their best to make it a survival issue for him. There's a problem with this approach. If research that produces the "wrong" results gets silenced, it's little more than a sockpuppet for the ruling ideology, and people will justifiably ignore it when they realize this. I say "if", but it's already the case. When a study gives results that agree with whatever is being pushed, it's publicized in the strongest of terms, it "shows" or "proves" or "confirms" something. If it disagrees, it's rarely mentioned, and downplayed to a mere "oh it's complicated, more research needs to be done, many questions still open...". That is if the study even gets funded in the first place, for fear it might give results we don't want.
      - DoreenMichele 6y ago
        Create a world in which it is possible to say "Trans stuff sounds like baloney to me" without that assertion being a threat to the survival of such people and then you can have enthusiastic scientific debates about exactly what is going on with some people and why on Earth do they do things like dress like the "wrong sex" and choose to undergo invasive surgeries. As long as trans individuals face barriers to employment, barriers to housing and are at risk of being murdered simply for being who they are, this will remain a very touchy issue. We live in a world where being "the wrong kind of people" -- in ways that have absolutely nothing to do with trustworthiness or character or criminal behavior -- condemns people to a lesser life and where the world will act with enormous callous disregard for your welfare to an outright abusive degree and feel okay about it and like you shouldn't complain. Being LGBTQ, a person of color or even just female or poor can qualify you for such treatment and your complaints about being treated abusively will fall on deaf ears. No one will care. You will be told to quit your whining and stop acting entitled. So people being victimized try to argue "the science" because that's more socially acceptable. Otherwise they have zero voice if they politely go along with society's position that there isn't a problem and you should be neither seen nor heard because of who you are, much less voice complaints about the terrible quality of life you have due to details you didn't choose and cannot escape, try though you might.

by Udik 6y ago

DoreenMichele 6y ago

If true, I'm guessing I would. I have a long history of saying "All y'all are wrong and both sides need to quit this crap." My mother always said "Two wrongs don't make a right."

Udik 6y ago
It's definitely true- after all we're talking about people who stalked him and his (potential) employers because of how wrong he is. On the other hand, science is about finding truths. It needs to be flexible to replace old truths with new ones, but that doesn't mean that each single scientist must be flexible. It's fine for scientists to be absolutely convinced of the value of their theories and to defend them the best they can. After all, it has been said that science advances one funeral at a time. Scientists can be (and have been, historically, in various cases) giant assholes.
- DoreenMichele 6y ago
  I don't really know the whole story. I'm guilty of not even reading the entire article. I'm a woman on the internet. I have had my fair share of mansplaining assholes let me know that I'm wrong and stupid and have zero right to have a personal opinion about my own life, so I didn't have a lot of patience for this piece. But given the topic, I'm guessing he was stalked and harassed by people for whom this topic is a survival issue. So they did their best to make it a survival issue for him. That doesn't make them right, not by any stretch of the imagination. But trans rights are not about mere scientific opinion. It's a political battle and lives are at stake. Among other things, LGBTQ individuals are at very high risk of homelessness and homeless individuals have a life expectancy that's about two decades shorter than average.
  - rbecker 6y ago
    > But given the topic, I'm guessing he was stalked and harassed by people for whom this topic is a survival issue. So they did their best to make it a survival issue for him. There's a problem with this approach. If research that produces the "wrong" results gets silenced, it's little more than a sockpuppet for the ruling ideology, and people will justifiably ignore it when they realize this. I say "if", but it's already the case. When a study gives results that agree with whatever is being pushed, it's publicized in the strongest of terms, it "shows" or "proves" or "confirms" something. If it disagrees, it's rarely mentioned, and downplayed to a mere "oh it's complicated, more research needs to be done, many questions still open...". That is if the study even gets funded in the first place, for fear it might give results we don't want.
    - DoreenMichele 6y ago
      Create a world in which it is possible to say "Trans stuff sounds like baloney to me" without that assertion being a threat to the survival of such people and then you can have enthusiastic scientific debates about exactly what is going on with some people and why on Earth do they do things like dress like the "wrong sex" and choose to undergo invasive surgeries. As long as trans individuals face barriers to employment, barriers to housing and are at risk of being murdered simply for being who they are, this will remain a very touchy issue. We live in a world where being "the wrong kind of people" -- in ways that have absolutely nothing to do with trustworthiness or character or criminal behavior -- condemns people to a lesser life and where the world will act with enormous callous disregard for your welfare to an outright abusive degree and feel okay about it and like you shouldn't complain. Being LGBTQ, a person of color or even just female or poor can qualify you for such treatment and your complaints about being treated abusively will fall on deaf ears. No one will care. You will be told to quit your whining and stop acting entitled. So people being victimized try to argue "the science" because that's more socially acceptable. Otherwise they have zero voice if they politely go along with society's position that there isn't a problem and you should be neither seen nor heard because of who you are, much less voice complaints about the terrible quality of life you have due to details you didn't choose and cannot escape, try though you might.