6 ms·

I do not believe in this over-simplification. However, the point about going to debt for those degrees is a question specific to US at this point in time. We s

by vaidhy 6y ago

I do not believe in this over-simplification. However, the point about going to debt for those degrees is a question specific to US at this point in time. We should talk about free college education or heavily subsidized one, but this same group here has been heavily against these ideas because they are socialist. However, happiest countries in the world seems to be mostly social democratic[1] and for one, if possible, I will happily trade my US pay for a lower pay, less worried life. On a side note, I have a feeling that US prefers a "dog eat dog world" because everyone here thinks they will be the ones doing the eating and caring for the underdog is a sign of weakness/waste of resources. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurabegleybloom/2020/03/20/ranked-20-happiest-countries-2020/#103598c97850 https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurabegleybloom/2020/03/20/ran...

linuxftw 6y ago
> We should talk about free college education or heavily subsidized one It already exists. It's called the internet. You can learn almost everything you need, and in much greater detail, than a traditional 'higher education' offered by a brick and mortar institution. The problem is only convincing the gate keepers.
- 8bitsrule 6y ago
  There is no comparison. College is not a vocational school. Internet is not a library, more like acres of dusty piles of tattered and strewn books. More importantly, it's also a shitty source of: collegiality, constructive criticism, respect for scholarship, access to intelligently-vetted new experiences, and well-reasoned communication. What I remember most, and consider most valuable about my college years, is not the teaching/coursework. The net cannot begin to compare. Facebook is free.
- pyuser583 6y ago
  That is simply untrue. You cant learn, for example, advanced cryptography outside a classroom.
  - simplesleeper 6y ago
    why couldn't you? of course you can
  - simplesleeper 6y ago
    what is stopping you from buying and reading books on cryptography, number theory, security protocols etc?
    - jason0597 6y ago
      School is about a person who knows more than you on a topic, being over your shoulder, and telling you "that is right", "that is wrong", "you should do this via this method", etc. School isn't just a funnel of knowledge being poured into your brain. It's about the people that teach you and verify that you are actually learning the right things. Sure, you can pick up books on cryptography, but who would you rather hire? A self-taught cryptographer, or a university-vetted cryptographer?
  - willcipriano 6y ago
    Applied Cryptography[0] is available for $18.97 for a used hardcover copy on Amazon. The only thing that doesn't come with that a classroom does is someone to hold you accountable to read it. [0]https://www.amazon.com/Applied-Cryptography-Protocols-Algorithms-Source-dp-0471128457/dp/0471128457/ref=mt_other?_encoding=UTF8&me=&qid= https://www.amazon.com/Applied-Cryptography-Protocols-Algori...
    - pyuser583 6y ago
      One could memorize Applied Cryptography, and still not be qualified to create a new encryption algorithm. That requires advanced education. Additionally, Applied Cryptography is an outdated (“classic”?) book. It’s most recent introduction clearly states this, and refers the reader to a different book (“Cryptographic Engineering”) for more current information. Can you give me a bibliography of books readable by a person without an advanced degree, that would teach them how to create brand new, secure fully homomorphic encryption algorithm? Edit: my spell checker changed “homomorphic” to “homophobic!”
daniel-s 6y ago
Your list is a list of countries that also happen to be at the top of this one [1]. They are the countries with the most freedom and capitalism. People are generally happy when they're free to own property and become prosperous. [1] https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking
- vaidhy 6y ago
  I think you are confusing social democracy and communism[1]. I agree with you that people should be free to own property and become wealthy. However, I do not think it should come at the cost of removing social net for the less lucky. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy
  - daniel-s 6y ago
    Feel free to disagree with me, but I believe I very well understand what "social democracy" is supposed to mean.
  - jedmeyers 6y ago
    Is that the same social democracy as in Russian Social Democratic Labour Party?
    - jason0597 6y ago
      No, it isn't.
grandmczeb 6y ago
> this same group here has been heavily against these ideas because they are socialist. This is a caricature. It's not much different than saying people are for free college because they're lazy and don't want to work for a living. > I have a feeling that US prefers a "dog eat dog world" because everyone here thinks they will be the ones doing the eating and caring for the underdog is a sign of weakness/waste of resources. I have a feeling the reason you think this way is because you haven't made a serious effort to empathize with the people who disagree with you.
eezurr 6y ago
hmm[0] If I was the leader of this country, I'd see placing market pressure on the citizens would coerce them to yield to market efficiency. That is to say, if people have to pay for college, it would push more people towards degrees that run the economic/productive component of this engine (due to the higher salaries from the demand). The wealth generated from this omni-cultural push will benefit the country, both it's leaders and it's citizens. Deep down in the depths of the human mind is a little chunk of the brain that is terrified of death and inferiority. This goop collectively bubbles up to the surface sometimes, taking the form of war. If this is one of the prices to pay to live in a country that no other country in the world could conquer, i'd say it's worth it. Human history is full of evidence that reality. [0]This comment is just a one dimensional thought experiment
DoreenMichele 6y ago
On a side note, I have a feeling that US prefers a "dog eat dog world" because everyone here thinks they will be the ones doing the eating and caring for the underdog is a sign of weakness/waste of resources. The default or dominant culture in America is upper class cis het white male. Historically, yes, those people could pretty count on being the ones doing the eating. Women and people of color were the ones taking up many other roles and it was possible to sometimes care about them -- or just treat them like absolute crap while benefiting from a relationship to them because they had little to no recourse -- without that impinging on the professional part of your life where, by default, killer instinct could rule the day. I think part of what is messing things up is the rise in human rights for women and people of color. This is disrupting these historical patterns which have something of a tendency to carry forward. We are largely failing to ask "So, just what kinds of patterns actually work for a world in which we assume all adults have similar rights and opportunities?" Many people are quite oblivious to the many layers of baked in assumptions about, for example, how work gets organized and how we provide benefits to the people. It is largely invisible the degree to which we assume a man is doing certain kinds of work and there is probably a woman at home doing the cooking and cleaning and other "women's work." And I tend to get a lot of flak anytime I try to comment on it because I'm a woman and HN is overwhelmingly male, so people (seem to) think I'm some man-hating, feminazi who is intentionally shit-stirring or something and tend to not think I'm someone who has actively studied the space because of the ways it has negatively impacted my life, so I'm somewhat knowledgeable about such topics.
- MaximumYComb 6y ago
  I became a single father when my youngest was a baby. I was juggling a baby plus a two year old and all that comes with it (obviously I couldn't breastfeed) with full time work. I saw the results of years of womens studies first hand. Zero services available to fathers of babies since every single government funded program was only for mothers. Being questioned about potential unsavoury activies because my two year old said they like wrestling at home with dad and everyone distrusts a father who is raising a baby by himself. How the entire gender studies academia misses that the culture in raising babies is hostile to men I don't know but I trust their professional opinions about as far as I can piss. EDIT: I'll flesh this out with an example of why I don't value liberal arts degrees. Approaching one Christmas I was struggling. My work didn't go on break until 5pm on the 23rd, I was juggling that plus parenting plus all the other tasks that go into preparing for a family Christmas. I stumbled across a news article that I would summarise as "We need to thank all the women that are working hard right now to make Christmas special for us". I emailed this journalist, a graduate of the liberal arts, and mentioned that there are a number of men out there in situations like men working towards the same goal and the gendered language can be harmful. The journalist reponded that it's mostly women so there isn't an issue with this language. The same journalist who writes about how we need to make STEM more hosptitable to women, etc. Her formal liberal arts education only taught her to see gender issues in one direction and didn't give her to critical ability to think about gender issues in a broader sense. So yes, I don't value when people have some parts of a liberal arts education.

by vaidhy 6y ago

linuxftw 6y ago

> We should talk about free college education or heavily subsidized one It already exists. It's called the internet. You can learn almost everything you need, and in much greater detail, than a traditional 'higher education' offered by a brick and mortar institution. The problem is only convincing the gate keepers.

8bitsrule 6y ago
There is no comparison. College is not a vocational school. Internet is not a library, more like acres of dusty piles of tattered and strewn books. More importantly, it's also a shitty source of: collegiality, constructive criticism, respect for scholarship, access to intelligently-vetted new experiences, and well-reasoned communication. What I remember most, and consider most valuable about my college years, is not the teaching/coursework. The net cannot begin to compare. Facebook is free.
pyuser583 6y ago
That is simply untrue. You cant learn, for example, advanced cryptography outside a classroom.
- simplesleeper 6y ago
  why couldn't you? of course you can
- simplesleeper 6y ago
  what is stopping you from buying and reading books on cryptography, number theory, security protocols etc?
  - jason0597 6y ago
    School is about a person who knows more than you on a topic, being over your shoulder, and telling you "that is right", "that is wrong", "you should do this via this method", etc. School isn't just a funnel of knowledge being poured into your brain. It's about the people that teach you and verify that you are actually learning the right things. Sure, you can pick up books on cryptography, but who would you rather hire? A self-taught cryptographer, or a university-vetted cryptographer?
- willcipriano 6y ago
  Applied Cryptography[0] is available for $18.97 for a used hardcover copy on Amazon. The only thing that doesn't come with that a classroom does is someone to hold you accountable to read it. [0]https://www.amazon.com/Applied-Cryptography-Protocols-Algorithms-Source-dp-0471128457/dp/0471128457/ref=mt_other?_encoding=UTF8&me=&qid= https://www.amazon.com/Applied-Cryptography-Protocols-Algori...
  - pyuser583 6y ago
    One could memorize Applied Cryptography, and still not be qualified to create a new encryption algorithm. That requires advanced education. Additionally, Applied Cryptography is an outdated (“classic”?) book. It’s most recent introduction clearly states this, and refers the reader to a different book (“Cryptographic Engineering”) for more current information. Can you give me a bibliography of books readable by a person without an advanced degree, that would teach them how to create brand new, secure fully homomorphic encryption algorithm? Edit: my spell checker changed “homomorphic” to “homophobic!”

daniel-s 6y ago

Your list is a list of countries that also happen to be at the top of this one [1]. They are the countries with the most freedom and capitalism. People are generally happy when they're free to own property and become prosperous. [1] https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

vaidhy 6y ago
I think you are confusing social democracy and communism[1]. I agree with you that people should be free to own property and become wealthy. However, I do not think it should come at the cost of removing social net for the less lucky. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy
- daniel-s 6y ago
  Feel free to disagree with me, but I believe I very well understand what "social democracy" is supposed to mean.
- jedmeyers 6y ago
  Is that the same social democracy as in Russian Social Democratic Labour Party?
  - jason0597 6y ago
    No, it isn't.

grandmczeb 6y ago

> this same group here has been heavily against these ideas because they are socialist. This is a caricature. It's not much different than saying people are for free college because they're lazy and don't want to work for a living. > I have a feeling that US prefers a "dog eat dog world" because everyone here thinks they will be the ones doing the eating and caring for the underdog is a sign of weakness/waste of resources. I have a feeling the reason you think this way is because you haven't made a serious effort to empathize with the people who disagree with you.

eezurr 6y ago

hmm[0] If I was the leader of this country, I'd see placing market pressure on the citizens would coerce them to yield to market efficiency. That is to say, if people have to pay for college, it would push more people towards degrees that run the economic/productive component of this engine (due to the higher salaries from the demand). The wealth generated from this omni-cultural push will benefit the country, both it's leaders and it's citizens. Deep down in the depths of the human mind is a little chunk of the brain that is terrified of death and inferiority. This goop collectively bubbles up to the surface sometimes, taking the form of war. If this is one of the prices to pay to live in a country that no other country in the world could conquer, i'd say it's worth it. Human history is full of evidence that reality. [0]This comment is just a one dimensional thought experiment

DoreenMichele 6y ago

On a side note, I have a feeling that US prefers a "dog eat dog world" because everyone here thinks they will be the ones doing the eating and caring for the underdog is a sign of weakness/waste of resources. The default or dominant culture in America is upper class cis het white male. Historically, yes, those people could pretty count on being the ones doing the eating. Women and people of color were the ones taking up many other roles and it was possible to sometimes care about them -- or just treat them like absolute crap while benefiting from a relationship to them because they had little to no recourse -- without that impinging on the professional part of your life where, by default, killer instinct could rule the day. I think part of what is messing things up is the rise in human rights for women and people of color. This is disrupting these historical patterns which have something of a tendency to carry forward. We are largely failing to ask "So, just what kinds of patterns actually work for a world in which we assume all adults have similar rights and opportunities?" Many people are quite oblivious to the many layers of baked in assumptions about, for example, how work gets organized and how we provide benefits to the people. It is largely invisible the degree to which we assume a man is doing certain kinds of work and there is probably a woman at home doing the cooking and cleaning and other "women's work." And I tend to get a lot of flak anytime I try to comment on it because I'm a woman and HN is overwhelmingly male, so people (seem to) think I'm some man-hating, feminazi who is intentionally shit-stirring or something and tend to not think I'm someone who has actively studied the space because of the ways it has negatively impacted my life, so I'm somewhat knowledgeable about such topics.

MaximumYComb 6y ago
I became a single father when my youngest was a baby. I was juggling a baby plus a two year old and all that comes with it (obviously I couldn't breastfeed) with full time work. I saw the results of years of womens studies first hand. Zero services available to fathers of babies since every single government funded program was only for mothers. Being questioned about potential unsavoury activies because my two year old said they like wrestling at home with dad and everyone distrusts a father who is raising a baby by himself. How the entire gender studies academia misses that the culture in raising babies is hostile to men I don't know but I trust their professional opinions about as far as I can piss. EDIT: I'll flesh this out with an example of why I don't value liberal arts degrees. Approaching one Christmas I was struggling. My work didn't go on break until 5pm on the 23rd, I was juggling that plus parenting plus all the other tasks that go into preparing for a family Christmas. I stumbled across a news article that I would summarise as "We need to thank all the women that are working hard right now to make Christmas special for us". I emailed this journalist, a graduate of the liberal arts, and mentioned that there are a number of men out there in situations like men working towards the same goal and the gendered language can be harmful. The journalist reponded that it's mostly women so there isn't an issue with this language. The same journalist who writes about how we need to make STEM more hosptitable to women, etc. Her formal liberal arts education only taught her to see gender issues in one direction and didn't give her to critical ability to think about gender issues in a broader sense. So yes, I don't value when people have some parts of a liberal arts education.