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I want a more ergonomic keyboard since I may be developing wrist problems, but I don't understand why none of them seem to have function keys. I use the functio

I want a more ergonomic keyboard since I may be developing wrist problems, but I don't understand why none of them seem to have function keys. I use the function keys all the time and when I switch to a 40% layout I get seriously annoyed by the lack of them and end up going back to a full layout keyboard because of it. I spent twenty minutes searching for a split keyboard with function keys and found only one thread where someone made a "theoretical" split layout with function keys and discussed it for a long time, and then gave up in the end by going back to a function-keyless keyboard and saying that he simply learned to live without them and even argued that having no function keys is healthier as it reduces finger movement, so there's no real point in having them. Is this some kind of cultural thing, where nobody in the DIY keyboard space is interested in making such a keyboard, even though there are keyboards marketed as ergonomic with cheap dome switches I don't prefer but still have function keys? Are "split keyboard" and "function keys" mutually exclusive properties? I don't understand. EDIT: Okay, I did not look hard enough at all. https://www.zergotech.com/ https://www.zergotech.com/ This looks like the kind of keyboard I would be interested in using.

retzkek 6y ago
Most reduced ergo keyboards are heavily reliant upon layers to provide access to function keys, media keys, numpad, etc. I have several ergo keyboards, and my favorite (and one I'm currently typing on) is the Atreus [1]. In the default configuration it's one press with the thumb to access the numpad without moving the hand [2], and another keypress puts the function keys there instead (with the same layout for 1-9) [3]. This is all customizable of course. It definitely takes some getting used to, but once you do it's such an efficient and enjoyable typing experience. [1] https://atreus.technomancy.us/ https://atreus.technomancy.us/ keyboard.io also recently completed a kickstarter campaign for mass-produced Atreuses and are taking pre-orders for the next run: https://shop.keyboard.io/products/keyboardio-atreus https://shop.keyboard.io/products/keyboardio-atreus [2] https://atreus.technomancy.us/i/layout-fn.svg https://atreus.technomancy.us/i/layout-fn.svg [3] https://atreus.technomancy.us/i/layout-bonus.svg https://atreus.technomancy.us/i/layout-bonus.svg
- nonbirithm 6y ago
  I understand, I've used a 40% layout (Poker II) and I liked the keyfeel and portability. I did like typing on it way more than using my laptop's keyboard. I liked everything about it except the fact that I ended up trying to use the arrow or function keys or numpad all the time for things like I used to with my larger keyboards (gamedev), get tired of mispressing them over and over, and end up going back to a full layout keyboard. (I'm typing this on a Filco Majestouch.) If I'm understanding the links correctly the Atreus doesn't even have a number row, which at least the Poker had. Maybe I just haven't fully internalized the "you'll get used to it after some time" part yet. Maybe the "some time" part is actually around six months of continuous usage instead of about three. I'm not sure.
xupybd 6y ago
Have you looked at the kenesis advantage? Solved my wrist problems and it has function keys.
- nonbirithm 6y ago
  The Kinesis does look pretty interesting, I'm doing some research on it. $349 seems a bit pricey, but at least it does have the full key layout (even if the function keys are rubber).
  - least 6y ago
    The Kinesis Advantage 2 does not use rubber dome switches for its function. They are cherry ml switches.
    - ianhowson 6y ago
      Cherry ML are terrible. I'd prefer rubber domes.
      - least 6y ago
        For what it's worth, I don't find the ML switches on my Advantage 2 nor the rubber domes on my Advantage 1 particularly offensive; if you are using the function keys constantly then your viewpoint might differ.
MivLives 6y ago
I think the reason for lack of f keys is a two fold: 1. It's cheaper and easier to have less switches on a board. Some people are using switches that push a dollar or more a switch. That's an extra ten bucks for keys that... most people don't use that often. It also makes it easier for board layout I imagine, but I'll admit I don't have much knowledge on creation of custom PCBs. 2. One of the things I've seen complained about with the Ergodox and the reason most of the variants (Gergo, Iris, Corne) is the same thing your friend said. The extra keys that aren't in easy reach add more hand movement. When you have a thumb cluster as a lot of these boards do adding more layers is relatively trivial. Most of these boards have software that lets you output macros as well meaning that you can essentially output key short cuts that would have used the f keys, or any other 3 plus combination of keys as just two. Germ over a Gboards has taken this concept to absurdity with the Ginny. It has ten keys and is heavily inspired by stenography style chording. I used to be in your boat, not thinking I'd ever want something smaller then maybe a 75% or ten keyless. However I recently got a 64% keyboard that has a split space bar. I'll admit I haven't found myself missing the f keys as much as I thought I would. The closer positioning of the arrow keys has left my elbows feeling better at the end of the day. It's also close enough to a normal keyboard that even with a few substitutions (esc is now where caps lock is. Backspace is right thumb.) my muscle memory seems to be fine when switching back and forth.
- nonbirithm 6y ago
  Thanks for the details, that makes sense. Maybe I'm just a bit too grounded in my thought process from using full key layouts all the time. I guess this means if I'm wanting to go more ergonomic while still staying in the mechanical keyboard sphere then I really would just have to get used to macros, because having one key serve multiple purposes means needing less space for keys to be socketed, meaning less hand movement, meaning less hand strain. Also, a lot of people seem to have macropads or separate numpads and use them for basically the exact same purpose I'm currently using the function keys for, so that could be a good compromise if I still want something like the Ergodox with a split layout.
autocorr 6y ago
Well they are more time consuming and expensive to build for hobbyists, but I think that the main reason is that when you get a fully programmable keyboard it enables a lot of useful features that obviate things like dedicated function keys and the number pad. Using a columnar/grid key layout the number pad is strictly obviated by a layer switch to number pad keys under the right hand, and I use the same layer on my left hand for the function keys. It's honestly a lot easier this way having F1 thru F4 on the homerow. Coupled with "sticky modifiers" so that they can be tapped instead of being held down to do things like Alt+F4 I don't have any desire to go back to dedicated function keys.
armadsen 6y ago
https://keeb.io/collections/sinc/products/sinc-split-staggered-75-keyboard https://keeb.io/collections/sinc/products/sinc-split-stagger... Keeb.io has a split keyboard with F keys on top, and macro keys on the left. Not a full layout with a numpad, but getting closer. I built a Quefrency by them and like it a lot.

retzkek 6y ago

Most reduced ergo keyboards are heavily reliant upon layers to provide access to function keys, media keys, numpad, etc. I have several ergo keyboards, and my favorite (and one I'm currently typing on) is the Atreus [1]. In the default configuration it's one press with the thumb to access the numpad without moving the hand [2], and another keypress puts the function keys there instead (with the same layout for 1-9) [3]. This is all customizable of course. It definitely takes some getting used to, but once you do it's such an efficient and enjoyable typing experience. [1] https://atreus.technomancy.us/ https://atreus.technomancy.us/ keyboard.io also recently completed a kickstarter campaign for mass-produced Atreuses and are taking pre-orders for the next run: https://shop.keyboard.io/products/keyboardio-atreus https://shop.keyboard.io/products/keyboardio-atreus [2] https://atreus.technomancy.us/i/layout-fn.svg https://atreus.technomancy.us/i/layout-fn.svg [3] https://atreus.technomancy.us/i/layout-bonus.svg https://atreus.technomancy.us/i/layout-bonus.svg

nonbirithm 6y ago
I understand, I've used a 40% layout (Poker II) and I liked the keyfeel and portability. I did like typing on it way more than using my laptop's keyboard. I liked everything about it except the fact that I ended up trying to use the arrow or function keys or numpad all the time for things like I used to with my larger keyboards (gamedev), get tired of mispressing them over and over, and end up going back to a full layout keyboard. (I'm typing this on a Filco Majestouch.) If I'm understanding the links correctly the Atreus doesn't even have a number row, which at least the Poker had. Maybe I just haven't fully internalized the "you'll get used to it after some time" part yet. Maybe the "some time" part is actually around six months of continuous usage instead of about three. I'm not sure.

xupybd 6y ago

Have you looked at the kenesis advantage? Solved my wrist problems and it has function keys.

nonbirithm 6y ago
The Kinesis does look pretty interesting, I'm doing some research on it. $349 seems a bit pricey, but at least it does have the full key layout (even if the function keys are rubber).
- least 6y ago
  The Kinesis Advantage 2 does not use rubber dome switches for its function. They are cherry ml switches.
  - ianhowson 6y ago
    Cherry ML are terrible. I'd prefer rubber domes.
    - least 6y ago
      For what it's worth, I don't find the ML switches on my Advantage 2 nor the rubber domes on my Advantage 1 particularly offensive; if you are using the function keys constantly then your viewpoint might differ.

MivLives 6y ago

I think the reason for lack of f keys is a two fold: 1. It's cheaper and easier to have less switches on a board. Some people are using switches that push a dollar or more a switch. That's an extra ten bucks for keys that... most people don't use that often. It also makes it easier for board layout I imagine, but I'll admit I don't have much knowledge on creation of custom PCBs. 2. One of the things I've seen complained about with the Ergodox and the reason most of the variants (Gergo, Iris, Corne) is the same thing your friend said. The extra keys that aren't in easy reach add more hand movement. When you have a thumb cluster as a lot of these boards do adding more layers is relatively trivial. Most of these boards have software that lets you output macros as well meaning that you can essentially output key short cuts that would have used the f keys, or any other 3 plus combination of keys as just two. Germ over a Gboards has taken this concept to absurdity with the Ginny. It has ten keys and is heavily inspired by stenography style chording. I used to be in your boat, not thinking I'd ever want something smaller then maybe a 75% or ten keyless. However I recently got a 64% keyboard that has a split space bar. I'll admit I haven't found myself missing the f keys as much as I thought I would. The closer positioning of the arrow keys has left my elbows feeling better at the end of the day. It's also close enough to a normal keyboard that even with a few substitutions (esc is now where caps lock is. Backspace is right thumb.) my muscle memory seems to be fine when switching back and forth.

nonbirithm 6y ago
Thanks for the details, that makes sense. Maybe I'm just a bit too grounded in my thought process from using full key layouts all the time. I guess this means if I'm wanting to go more ergonomic while still staying in the mechanical keyboard sphere then I really would just have to get used to macros, because having one key serve multiple purposes means needing less space for keys to be socketed, meaning less hand movement, meaning less hand strain. Also, a lot of people seem to have macropads or separate numpads and use them for basically the exact same purpose I'm currently using the function keys for, so that could be a good compromise if I still want something like the Ergodox with a split layout.

autocorr 6y ago

Well they are more time consuming and expensive to build for hobbyists, but I think that the main reason is that when you get a fully programmable keyboard it enables a lot of useful features that obviate things like dedicated function keys and the number pad. Using a columnar/grid key layout the number pad is strictly obviated by a layer switch to number pad keys under the right hand, and I use the same layer on my left hand for the function keys. It's honestly a lot easier this way having F1 thru F4 on the homerow. Coupled with "sticky modifiers" so that they can be tapped instead of being held down to do things like Alt+F4 I don't have any desire to go back to dedicated function keys.

armadsen 6y ago

https://keeb.io/collections/sinc/products/sinc-split-staggered-75-keyboard https://keeb.io/collections/sinc/products/sinc-split-stagger... Keeb.io has a split keyboard with F keys on top, and macro keys on the left. Not a full layout with a numpad, but getting closer. I built a Quefrency by them and like it a lot.