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Would you mind elaborating on your experiences in France and England? I'm curious about the situation there. I was under the impression that there are many effe

Would you mind elaborating on your experiences in France and England? I'm curious about the situation there. I was under the impression that there are many effective non-college options in those countries (England's pretty robust apprenticeship system comes to mind), and that university is generally both hard to get into and relatively cheap to complete. I also haven't lived in either France or England, so I speak from a place of little knowledge.

chrisseaton 6y ago
Almost half of school-leavers go to university in the UK. If you look at a normal school in a middle-class area it’s going to be about 90%. Seems like that can’t be ‘hard to get into’.
- guitarbill 6y ago
  I'm not sure for how much this accounts, but the UK allowed polytechnics to call themselves universities. Of course, this then increases the number of people going to uni... but this might've been a bad idea. While there was a prestige issue with the name, they now have to compete on a similar playing field. Germany's interesting here, since they had/have Fachhochschulen (apparently translated to University of Applied Sciences). Some of which were very highly regarded, and offered a different focus that suited some people. Although after the Bologna Process, this difference is less clear, too.
AQuantized 6y ago
It's not hard to get into a university in the UK. It is quite hard to get into a 'top' university, and Oxbridge typically requires a fair bit of luck in addition to being very hard. There are pretty decent apprenticeships, but only so many people want to work trades regardless. It's not exactly a ticket to wealth or status like a degree might still be perceived.
- pigscantfly 6y ago
  From an American perspective, it seems extremely easy to get into a 'top' UK university. Oxford and Cambridge admit around 20% of applicants. Compared to Princeton (6%), Stanford (4%), MIT (7%), etc. it seems like a cakewalk. Is there something I'm missing?
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    > Is there something I'm missing? Yes you're missing something. My friends in the US all apply to a very large number of elite universities. In the UK I don't believe you're even allowed to apply to more than one elite university in the same year, and only a very small number of universities overall. One person I know in the US applied to 23 universities. And then on top of that, in the UK all admissions for elite universities and most below that require an in-person interview, which the US (bafflingly) doesn't do. I think I applied to one elite and two just below elite. All of this means total applications in the UK are far fewer than in the US but each is more focused and more realistic which makes successful admissions seem higher. But really people who wouldn't have gotten in didn't apply in the first place. > it seems extremely easy to get into a 'top' UK university Also, what's with these scare-quotes? Are you skeptical that they're really top universities? They consistently top international rankings, alongside your best.
    - pigscantfly 6y ago
      I see; I didn't know that. I was using the quotes from the parent comment; I don't know enough about the UK system to know which are considered 'top' -- which I'm guessing is as subjective and rancorous a discussion as it is here -- to be confident in my own judgment beyond the parent-cited Oxbridge.
    - jbgud 6y ago
      >> require an in-person interview, which the US (bafflingly) doesn't do. Not all, but at least premium ones do alumni-driven interviews.
    - uzakov 6y ago
      > In the UK I don't believe you're even allowed to apply to more than one elite university in the same year, and only a very small number of universities overall. When I applied to university a while ago the rule was that you can apply to 5 universities only, ie make 5 applications in total. Only exception was "clearing" but thats a different story

chrisseaton 6y ago

Almost half of school-leavers go to university in the UK. If you look at a normal school in a middle-class area it’s going to be about 90%. Seems like that can’t be ‘hard to get into’.

guitarbill 6y ago
I'm not sure for how much this accounts, but the UK allowed polytechnics to call themselves universities. Of course, this then increases the number of people going to uni... but this might've been a bad idea. While there was a prestige issue with the name, they now have to compete on a similar playing field. Germany's interesting here, since they had/have Fachhochschulen (apparently translated to University of Applied Sciences). Some of which were very highly regarded, and offered a different focus that suited some people. Although after the Bologna Process, this difference is less clear, too.

AQuantized 6y ago

It's not hard to get into a university in the UK. It is quite hard to get into a 'top' university, and Oxbridge typically requires a fair bit of luck in addition to being very hard. There are pretty decent apprenticeships, but only so many people want to work trades regardless. It's not exactly a ticket to wealth or status like a degree might still be perceived.

pigscantfly 6y ago
From an American perspective, it seems extremely easy to get into a 'top' UK university. Oxford and Cambridge admit around 20% of applicants. Compared to Princeton (6%), Stanford (4%), MIT (7%), etc. it seems like a cakewalk. Is there something I'm missing?
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  > Is there something I'm missing? Yes you're missing something. My friends in the US all apply to a very large number of elite universities. In the UK I don't believe you're even allowed to apply to more than one elite university in the same year, and only a very small number of universities overall. One person I know in the US applied to 23 universities. And then on top of that, in the UK all admissions for elite universities and most below that require an in-person interview, which the US (bafflingly) doesn't do. I think I applied to one elite and two just below elite. All of this means total applications in the UK are far fewer than in the US but each is more focused and more realistic which makes successful admissions seem higher. But really people who wouldn't have gotten in didn't apply in the first place. > it seems extremely easy to get into a 'top' UK university Also, what's with these scare-quotes? Are you skeptical that they're really top universities? They consistently top international rankings, alongside your best.
  - pigscantfly 6y ago
    I see; I didn't know that. I was using the quotes from the parent comment; I don't know enough about the UK system to know which are considered 'top' -- which I'm guessing is as subjective and rancorous a discussion as it is here -- to be confident in my own judgment beyond the parent-cited Oxbridge.
  - jbgud 6y ago
    >> require an in-person interview, which the US (bafflingly) doesn't do. Not all, but at least premium ones do alumni-driven interviews.
  - uzakov 6y ago
    > In the UK I don't believe you're even allowed to apply to more than one elite university in the same year, and only a very small number of universities overall. When I applied to university a while ago the rule was that you can apply to 5 universities only, ie make 5 applications in total. Only exception was "clearing" but thats a different story