10 ms·

I wish people would just copy the MS Natural Ergonomic 4000, but with better keyswitches. As things stand, every split keyboard with nice keyswitches has a diff

by tom_ 6y ago

I wish people would just copy the MS Natural Ergonomic 4000, but with better keyswitches. As things stand, every split keyboard with nice keyswitches has a different layout from every other, which is odd, considering how much this type of device relies on muscle memory to work. (Also, most of them miss one or more of F keys, symmetrical meta keys, standard navigation cluster layout, volume buttons - it's like they want their devices to be less useful, not more!) Particularly annoying when there's such a wide range of non-split keyboards with nice keyswitches. You've got all the bizarre layouts you can eat, but you still get the option of a more standard one too.

nextos 6y ago
I love mechanical keyboards. My favorite switch is ALPS. But IMHO, the most ergonomic switches are low-travel ones. They increase my typing speed, reduce latency and make long sessions effortless. Luckily, low-travel versions of many good quality keyboard switches are being produced and developed more often now to cater the gaming market. For a simple, readily available option, I find the Apple Magic Keyboard more than good enough. It has really low latency [1]. I wonder if other low-travel switches are the same or if it has a particularly speedy firmware. [1] https://danluu.com/keyboard-latency/ https://danluu.com/keyboard-latency/
- rbanffy 6y ago
  > I find the Apple Magic Keyboard more than good enough I liked the previous gen better. It has slightly longer travel than the new one, very similar to the pre-butterfly Macbooks. Having said that, I prefer the feel of the butterflies over the magic ones. Even though the travel is very short, it's very tactile. I had a great surprise with the - haha - Raspberry Pi keyboard. It has a firm touch, good travel and small footprint. It feels much nicer than any keyboard in its price range has the right to feel. I'd love to try the Kinesis, but I'm not sure I like its footprint. I already have a Unicomp 122-key Battlecruiser on my Linux box and it's quite enough .
- tck42 6y ago
  I've found Kailh Blue low profile to be the sweet spot for mechanical but low travel. My absolute favorite keyboard is the HAVIT HV-KB395L [1], unfortunately the switches seem to not be very durable (or I'm just very rough on my keyboards). I have two broken ones around (left control key is flaky), considering if I want to buy another one. This is literally the only keyboard I have found that uses those switches. [1] https://www.prohavit.com/products/hv-kb395l-low-profile-mechanical-keyboard/ https://www.prohavit.com/products/hv-kb395l-low-profile-mech...
  - sprash 6y ago
    I have the TKL version of same keyboard and it is a great value for the price but it has several flaws. The Kailh Blue switches can click and not trigger if you don't press hard enough. So the audio feedback is basically worth nothing. Also there are no rubber feet at the back if you decide not to use the stands. There are also no rubber feet in the middle below the space bar where I would expect the keyboard to flex the most (it does only when pressing really hard though).
- nine_k 6y ago
  Kalih Brown are quite soft (40g) and quite low-travel (1.1 mm to actuation). I wish even softer Kalih scissor switches were an option. Kalih Blue are an option if you prefer to pound more (not offered with this keyboard, though). But I only find clicky switches acceptable if you're working from home, or have a personal office. Sitting next to someone else's clicky keyboard is not all that enjoyable.
- m0xte 6y ago
  Latest Apple magic keyboard is awful. The key tops rock all over the place. Back on my Cherry MX board 1.0 with red switches. It’s better than the cancerous lump of excrement that is the Magic Mouse 2 though.
- nico_h 6y ago
  for low profile mech keyboard in traditional arrangement, there is the keychron. For low profile switches there is the Kailh Choc family, though there is a limited choice of caps.
  - MivLives 6y ago
    The new MBK caps for them are getting some good reviews. Though the one downside of Choc caps is they are directional. Some of the split layouts need 2u vertical and that just doesn't exist.
- nonesuchluck 6y ago
  I'm decently happy with my Matias Ergo Pro [1]. They make their own ALPS-derived switches. Only other ALPS I've ever used are verrrrrry oldddddd Apple boards. Are there any other mass-produced ALPS keebs I should be aware of, or is it mostly just hobbyists harvesting old switches for custom boards? [1] https://matias.ca/ergopro/programmable/ https://matias.ca/ergopro/programmable/
- jsjohnst 6y ago
  I’m also a fan of low actuation force and short travel keyboards. I really like the Magic Keyboard in virtually every way except the key layout. Reading through the various switches they offer, it seems the Kailh Silver might be the closest match of what they offer to Apple’s switches, but I sadly am not willing to spend nearly $400 to find out.
- Too 6y ago
  For a low-travel and ergonomic keyboard, check out the Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic. It's wireless and has a standard layout which doesn't require any learning, including a real row of function-keys, full size arrow-block and pg-up/down. And it just cost 1/4 of the Moonlander. No per-key dedicated backlight, no programmable ARM Cortex or any other thrills, it's just a simple, comfortable, plug in and start using keyboard. I wish they offered an even cheaper version without the silly Mouse in the package. It has a reputation for bad build quality but i've been lucky with mine. Also be careful to not loose the wireless dongle as the keyboard becomes a brick without it.
  - majkinetor 6y ago
    This is awesome keyboard. Fn keys do suck tho and are cheap. Also, forearm gets dirty in few days and keyboard start to look like it is used for years. I also gave silly mouse a chance and it turns out I like it very much now - not for games but otherwise very good and fits in hand great.
  - nextos 6y ago
    They do offer a version with OEM/business packaging and no mouse.
codemac 6y ago
As someone who uses an advantage kinesis & dvorak, laptops & dvorak, and other people's computers & qwerty: You get used to switching back and forth in ~2 weeks. If you spend all your day typing, definitely spend the $ and the time to learn to type on an ergonomic keyboard with good quality switches. I think the kinesis or maltron have the best research on their ergonomics & build quality. I highly recommend them.
- phaus 6y ago
  The Kinesis is based on sound research. The Maltrons have a lot of keys positioned in ways that add nothing to ergonomics. Maltron also makes the claim that you can type 80 wpm with their 1 handed keyboard but there seems to be no publicly available evidence of anyone getting anywhere near that fast. I agree its pretty easy to switch back and forth between different split keyboards and to traditional keyboards. I use an Ergodox-EZ and a Dactyl Manuform on a daily basis for 2 different systems.
  - StavrosK 6y ago
    I use an Ergodox-like keyboard (Centromere v2) and am currently typing on my laptop (normal Dell keyboard). I switch between the two completely effortlessly, without thinking about it. I can no longer type on my old Das, though, as I haven't used it ever since I got the Centromere. I would not get a wireless keyboard now, it's not very unreliable, but enough to be a slight nuisance for no benefit.
  - alxlu 6y ago
    I tried to use one for months before giving up because I felt it was too big. I mostly enjoyed typing in the key wells, but I ended up getting thumb pain because of how much I had to stretch my hand in order to reach the enter/backspace/modifier keys.
    - phaus 6y ago
      What do you use now? The Dactyl was partly modeled after the Kinesis. It has the key wells and a curved thumb cluster. Still, the thumb cluster isn't perfect and its hard for most people to reach all of the keys. However, the Dactyl Manuform keeps the amazing key wells and has a completely redesigned thumb cluster. Its also designed to be easily customizable. There are versions with 2,3,4,5 and 6 keys per thumb cluster. Unlike the original Dactyl, the Ergodox, and the Kinesis, I have no problems at all using all 6 keys per thumb cluster on the Dactyl Manuform. IMO its the best split keyboard unless you want to go for something smaller and use layers to gain access to more keys. Unfortunately if you can't 3d print the case yourself and hand-wire it, its pretty expensive to acquire one. I just built mine recently and it almost instantly replaced my Ergodox-EZ as my favorite keyboard.
jdhawk 6y ago
I transitioned over to the ergo k680, and have really enjoyed it. The only keyboard I've stuck with after the MS4000
- patal 6y ago
  Thanks for the tip! Haven't seen this yet, and collegues complain about the MS4000's loudness when I type.
  - jdhawk 6y ago
    There was a slight learning curve, as things are just...a tad different, but I would not go back now.
erikerikson 6y ago
I'm a recent'ish convert from the MS Natural Ergonomic after decades. I'm glad I switched. Ortholinear layout really is better but as the marketing says, it takes a bit and is a journey. I have missed the clustered nav keys but have also really enjoyed having them closer to standard hand placement. The 'layering' approach makes the function keys as simple as ctrl-×. FWIW, I'm a happy customer and you may need to read this comment accordingly. I'd suggest it might be worth trying it out. I still have my MS keyboard but never want to use it.
nonbirithm 6y ago
I want a more ergonomic keyboard since I may be developing wrist problems, but I don't understand why none of them seem to have function keys. I use the function keys all the time and when I switch to a 40% layout I get seriously annoyed by the lack of them and end up going back to a full layout keyboard because of it. I spent twenty minutes searching for a split keyboard with function keys and found only one thread where someone made a "theoretical" split layout with function keys and discussed it for a long time, and then gave up in the end by going back to a function-keyless keyboard and saying that he simply learned to live without them and even argued that having no function keys is healthier as it reduces finger movement, so there's no real point in having them. Is this some kind of cultural thing, where nobody in the DIY keyboard space is interested in making such a keyboard, even though there are keyboards marketed as ergonomic with cheap dome switches I don't prefer but still have function keys? Are "split keyboard" and "function keys" mutually exclusive properties? I don't understand. EDIT: Okay, I did not look hard enough at all. https://www.zergotech.com/ https://www.zergotech.com/ This looks like the kind of keyboard I would be interested in using.
- retzkek 6y ago
  Most reduced ergo keyboards are heavily reliant upon layers to provide access to function keys, media keys, numpad, etc. I have several ergo keyboards, and my favorite (and one I'm currently typing on) is the Atreus [1]. In the default configuration it's one press with the thumb to access the numpad without moving the hand [2], and another keypress puts the function keys there instead (with the same layout for 1-9) [3]. This is all customizable of course. It definitely takes some getting used to, but once you do it's such an efficient and enjoyable typing experience. [1] https://atreus.technomancy.us/ https://atreus.technomancy.us/ keyboard.io also recently completed a kickstarter campaign for mass-produced Atreuses and are taking pre-orders for the next run: https://shop.keyboard.io/products/keyboardio-atreus https://shop.keyboard.io/products/keyboardio-atreus [2] https://atreus.technomancy.us/i/layout-fn.svg https://atreus.technomancy.us/i/layout-fn.svg [3] https://atreus.technomancy.us/i/layout-bonus.svg https://atreus.technomancy.us/i/layout-bonus.svg
  - nonbirithm 6y ago
genpfault 6y ago
> I wish people would just copy the MS Natural Ergonomic 4000, but with better keyswitches. Same, but for the Natural Keyboard Pro[1]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_ergonomic_keyboards#Natural_Keyboard_Pro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_ergonomic_keyboards#...
- tra3 6y ago
  Still got it attached to my server box. Other than comfort being able to pop it in the dishwasher for deep cleaning is my fav feature.
  - genpfault 6y ago
    > being able to pop it in the dishwasher for deep cleaning How much disassembly does that take? Can't imagine water being too good for the USB hub electronics & such.
    - kazinator 6y ago
      I have washed a regular keyboards in a dishwasher, electronics and all. Works fine; the downside is that it takes too long to dry. It can take several days before the last bits of moisture stop interfering with the membrane contacts. Therefore, of course disassembly is the preferred approach. It is fairly simple for most cheap membrane keyboards, like from Dell or Logitech and whatever. You unscrew some dozen or so screws, and and then the top cover which houses the keycaps separates from the bottom. Removing the top reveals the silicone sheet that provides the rubber domes for the key action and protects the internals from spills and debris. That rubber sheet removes easily; it is just loosely placed over the membrane switch board. You can wash the keycap housing in a dishwasher without popping the caps off at all. The rubber sheet can hand-washed in seconds in the sink with some soap and water. That's pretty much it.
- coldpie 6y ago
  A billion years ago (2006 or so probably), I impulse bought four or five of the Elite model all at once. Probably to save on shipping or some dumb thing, I don't remember. At the time I had gone through three of the keyboards by spilling water on them. Even a little water destroys the membranes inside, so I was like hey, I'll just stock up so I don't have to wait to order. Then they stopped making them. I have one remaining in storage, and two in active usage. One of those (this one I'm typing on now) has a flakey 1 key. I'm really dreading the day I finally destroy it and have to find some new keyboard to replace it. Nothing I've ever seen compares to the original MS Natural Elite.
cgh 6y ago
Agreed, that keyboard minus the numeric keypad and equipped with Cherry Blue switches is basically my dream keyboard. I use a Filco Majestouch 2 and it's great but I prefer the MS keyboard's ergo layout for sure.
sixothree 6y ago
I wouldn't mind seeing overlapping keys. Why can't TGBYHN be on _both_ sides of the keyboard...

by tom_ 6y ago

nextos 6y ago

I love mechanical keyboards. My favorite switch is ALPS. But IMHO, the most ergonomic switches are low-travel ones. They increase my typing speed, reduce latency and make long sessions effortless. Luckily, low-travel versions of many good quality keyboard switches are being produced and developed more often now to cater the gaming market. For a simple, readily available option, I find the Apple Magic Keyboard more than good enough. It has really low latency [1]. I wonder if other low-travel switches are the same or if it has a particularly speedy firmware. [1] https://danluu.com/keyboard-latency/ https://danluu.com/keyboard-latency/

rbanffy 6y ago
> I find the Apple Magic Keyboard more than good enough I liked the previous gen better. It has slightly longer travel than the new one, very similar to the pre-butterfly Macbooks. Having said that, I prefer the feel of the butterflies over the magic ones. Even though the travel is very short, it's very tactile. I had a great surprise with the - haha - Raspberry Pi keyboard. It has a firm touch, good travel and small footprint. It feels much nicer than any keyboard in its price range has the right to feel. I'd love to try the Kinesis, but I'm not sure I like its footprint. I already have a Unicomp 122-key Battlecruiser on my Linux box and it's quite enough .
tck42 6y ago
I've found Kailh Blue low profile to be the sweet spot for mechanical but low travel. My absolute favorite keyboard is the HAVIT HV-KB395L [1], unfortunately the switches seem to not be very durable (or I'm just very rough on my keyboards). I have two broken ones around (left control key is flaky), considering if I want to buy another one. This is literally the only keyboard I have found that uses those switches. [1] https://www.prohavit.com/products/hv-kb395l-low-profile-mechanical-keyboard/ https://www.prohavit.com/products/hv-kb395l-low-profile-mech...
- sprash 6y ago
  I have the TKL version of same keyboard and it is a great value for the price but it has several flaws. The Kailh Blue switches can click and not trigger if you don't press hard enough. So the audio feedback is basically worth nothing. Also there are no rubber feet at the back if you decide not to use the stands. There are also no rubber feet in the middle below the space bar where I would expect the keyboard to flex the most (it does only when pressing really hard though).
nine_k 6y ago
Kalih Brown are quite soft (40g) and quite low-travel (1.1 mm to actuation). I wish even softer Kalih scissor switches were an option. Kalih Blue are an option if you prefer to pound more (not offered with this keyboard, though). But I only find clicky switches acceptable if you're working from home, or have a personal office. Sitting next to someone else's clicky keyboard is not all that enjoyable.
m0xte 6y ago
Latest Apple magic keyboard is awful. The key tops rock all over the place. Back on my Cherry MX board 1.0 with red switches. It’s better than the cancerous lump of excrement that is the Magic Mouse 2 though.
nico_h 6y ago
for low profile mech keyboard in traditional arrangement, there is the keychron. For low profile switches there is the Kailh Choc family, though there is a limited choice of caps.
- MivLives 6y ago
  The new MBK caps for them are getting some good reviews. Though the one downside of Choc caps is they are directional. Some of the split layouts need 2u vertical and that just doesn't exist.
nonesuchluck 6y ago
I'm decently happy with my Matias Ergo Pro [1]. They make their own ALPS-derived switches. Only other ALPS I've ever used are verrrrrry oldddddd Apple boards. Are there any other mass-produced ALPS keebs I should be aware of, or is it mostly just hobbyists harvesting old switches for custom boards? [1] https://matias.ca/ergopro/programmable/ https://matias.ca/ergopro/programmable/
jsjohnst 6y ago
I’m also a fan of low actuation force and short travel keyboards. I really like the Magic Keyboard in virtually every way except the key layout. Reading through the various switches they offer, it seems the Kailh Silver might be the closest match of what they offer to Apple’s switches, but I sadly am not willing to spend nearly $400 to find out.
Too 6y ago
For a low-travel and ergonomic keyboard, check out the Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic. It's wireless and has a standard layout which doesn't require any learning, including a real row of function-keys, full size arrow-block and pg-up/down. And it just cost 1/4 of the Moonlander. No per-key dedicated backlight, no programmable ARM Cortex or any other thrills, it's just a simple, comfortable, plug in and start using keyboard. I wish they offered an even cheaper version without the silly Mouse in the package. It has a reputation for bad build quality but i've been lucky with mine. Also be careful to not loose the wireless dongle as the keyboard becomes a brick without it.
- majkinetor 6y ago
  This is awesome keyboard. Fn keys do suck tho and are cheap. Also, forearm gets dirty in few days and keyboard start to look like it is used for years. I also gave silly mouse a chance and it turns out I like it very much now - not for games but otherwise very good and fits in hand great.
- nextos 6y ago
  They do offer a version with OEM/business packaging and no mouse.

codemac 6y ago

As someone who uses an advantage kinesis & dvorak, laptops & dvorak, and other people's computers & qwerty: You get used to switching back and forth in ~2 weeks. If you spend all your day typing, definitely spend the $ and the time to learn to type on an ergonomic keyboard with good quality switches. I think the kinesis or maltron have the best research on their ergonomics & build quality. I highly recommend them.

phaus 6y ago
The Kinesis is based on sound research. The Maltrons have a lot of keys positioned in ways that add nothing to ergonomics. Maltron also makes the claim that you can type 80 wpm with their 1 handed keyboard but there seems to be no publicly available evidence of anyone getting anywhere near that fast. I agree its pretty easy to switch back and forth between different split keyboards and to traditional keyboards. I use an Ergodox-EZ and a Dactyl Manuform on a daily basis for 2 different systems.
- StavrosK 6y ago
  I use an Ergodox-like keyboard (Centromere v2) and am currently typing on my laptop (normal Dell keyboard). I switch between the two completely effortlessly, without thinking about it. I can no longer type on my old Das, though, as I haven't used it ever since I got the Centromere. I would not get a wireless keyboard now, it's not very unreliable, but enough to be a slight nuisance for no benefit.
- alxlu 6y ago
  I tried to use one for months before giving up because I felt it was too big. I mostly enjoyed typing in the key wells, but I ended up getting thumb pain because of how much I had to stretch my hand in order to reach the enter/backspace/modifier keys.
  - phaus 6y ago
    What do you use now? The Dactyl was partly modeled after the Kinesis. It has the key wells and a curved thumb cluster. Still, the thumb cluster isn't perfect and its hard for most people to reach all of the keys. However, the Dactyl Manuform keeps the amazing key wells and has a completely redesigned thumb cluster. Its also designed to be easily customizable. There are versions with 2,3,4,5 and 6 keys per thumb cluster. Unlike the original Dactyl, the Ergodox, and the Kinesis, I have no problems at all using all 6 keys per thumb cluster on the Dactyl Manuform. IMO its the best split keyboard unless you want to go for something smaller and use layers to gain access to more keys. Unfortunately if you can't 3d print the case yourself and hand-wire it, its pretty expensive to acquire one. I just built mine recently and it almost instantly replaced my Ergodox-EZ as my favorite keyboard.

jdhawk 6y ago

I transitioned over to the ergo k680, and have really enjoyed it. The only keyboard I've stuck with after the MS4000

patal 6y ago
Thanks for the tip! Haven't seen this yet, and collegues complain about the MS4000's loudness when I type.
- jdhawk 6y ago
  There was a slight learning curve, as things are just...a tad different, but I would not go back now.

erikerikson 6y ago

I'm a recent'ish convert from the MS Natural Ergonomic after decades. I'm glad I switched. Ortholinear layout really is better but as the marketing says, it takes a bit and is a journey. I have missed the clustered nav keys but have also really enjoyed having them closer to standard hand placement. The 'layering' approach makes the function keys as simple as ctrl-×. FWIW, I'm a happy customer and you may need to read this comment accordingly. I'd suggest it might be worth trying it out. I still have my MS keyboard but never want to use it.

nonbirithm 6y ago

I want a more ergonomic keyboard since I may be developing wrist problems, but I don't understand why none of them seem to have function keys. I use the function keys all the time and when I switch to a 40% layout I get seriously annoyed by the lack of them and end up going back to a full layout keyboard because of it. I spent twenty minutes searching for a split keyboard with function keys and found only one thread where someone made a "theoretical" split layout with function keys and discussed it for a long time, and then gave up in the end by going back to a function-keyless keyboard and saying that he simply learned to live without them and even argued that having no function keys is healthier as it reduces finger movement, so there's no real point in having them. Is this some kind of cultural thing, where nobody in the DIY keyboard space is interested in making such a keyboard, even though there are keyboards marketed as ergonomic with cheap dome switches I don't prefer but still have function keys? Are "split keyboard" and "function keys" mutually exclusive properties? I don't understand. EDIT: Okay, I did not look hard enough at all. https://www.zergotech.com/ https://www.zergotech.com/ This looks like the kind of keyboard I would be interested in using.

retzkek 6y ago
Most reduced ergo keyboards are heavily reliant upon layers to provide access to function keys, media keys, numpad, etc. I have several ergo keyboards, and my favorite (and one I'm currently typing on) is the Atreus [1]. In the default configuration it's one press with the thumb to access the numpad without moving the hand [2], and another keypress puts the function keys there instead (with the same layout for 1-9) [3]. This is all customizable of course. It definitely takes some getting used to, but once you do it's such an efficient and enjoyable typing experience. [1] https://atreus.technomancy.us/ https://atreus.technomancy.us/ keyboard.io also recently completed a kickstarter campaign for mass-produced Atreuses and are taking pre-orders for the next run: https://shop.keyboard.io/products/keyboardio-atreus https://shop.keyboard.io/products/keyboardio-atreus [2] https://atreus.technomancy.us/i/layout-fn.svg https://atreus.technomancy.us/i/layout-fn.svg [3] https://atreus.technomancy.us/i/layout-bonus.svg https://atreus.technomancy.us/i/layout-bonus.svg
- nonbirithm 6y ago

genpfault 6y ago

> I wish people would just copy the MS Natural Ergonomic 4000, but with better keyswitches. Same, but for the Natural Keyboard Pro[1]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_ergonomic_keyboards#Natural_Keyboard_Pro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_ergonomic_keyboards#...

tra3 6y ago
Still got it attached to my server box. Other than comfort being able to pop it in the dishwasher for deep cleaning is my fav feature.
- genpfault 6y ago
  > being able to pop it in the dishwasher for deep cleaning How much disassembly does that take? Can't imagine water being too good for the USB hub electronics & such.
  - kazinator 6y ago
    I have washed a regular keyboards in a dishwasher, electronics and all. Works fine; the downside is that it takes too long to dry. It can take several days before the last bits of moisture stop interfering with the membrane contacts. Therefore, of course disassembly is the preferred approach. It is fairly simple for most cheap membrane keyboards, like from Dell or Logitech and whatever. You unscrew some dozen or so screws, and and then the top cover which houses the keycaps separates from the bottom. Removing the top reveals the silicone sheet that provides the rubber domes for the key action and protects the internals from spills and debris. That rubber sheet removes easily; it is just loosely placed over the membrane switch board. You can wash the keycap housing in a dishwasher without popping the caps off at all. The rubber sheet can hand-washed in seconds in the sink with some soap and water. That's pretty much it.
coldpie 6y ago
A billion years ago (2006 or so probably), I impulse bought four or five of the Elite model all at once. Probably to save on shipping or some dumb thing, I don't remember. At the time I had gone through three of the keyboards by spilling water on them. Even a little water destroys the membranes inside, so I was like hey, I'll just stock up so I don't have to wait to order. Then they stopped making them. I have one remaining in storage, and two in active usage. One of those (this one I'm typing on now) has a flakey 1 key. I'm really dreading the day I finally destroy it and have to find some new keyboard to replace it. Nothing I've ever seen compares to the original MS Natural Elite.

cgh 6y ago

Agreed, that keyboard minus the numeric keypad and equipped with Cherry Blue switches is basically my dream keyboard. I use a Filco Majestouch 2 and it's great but I prefer the MS keyboard's ergo layout for sure.

sixothree 6y ago

I wouldn't mind seeing overlapping keys. Why can't TGBYHN be on _both_ sides of the keyboard...