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I think any victory in courts is going to be a pyrrhic one. Ive said it before on earlier threads and I will say it again here - Tesla is alienating a large sec

by dman 16y ago

I think any victory in courts is going to be a pyrrhic one. Ive said it before on earlier threads and I will say it again here - Tesla is alienating a large section of auto enthusiasts by going after Top Gear. It might be that some marketing guru has figured out that suing Top Gear is a cheaper way to get headlines than running a campaign. But they have picked the wrong target - Top Gear is at the heart and centre of Auto culture worldwide. Also not a good sign when a tech company starts using the courts instead of the market and their product to win points.

trafficlight 16y ago
Just look how it turned out for Morris Marina fans.
kwis 16y ago
I've got a deposit down on a Model S, and I don't think I could care less one way or the other. I thought the review was misleading and stupid, and I think the lawsuit is a stupid response. But whatever, I'm still excited about the Model S.
- protomyth 16y ago
  Since you have a deposit down, just out of curiosity, are you a home owner?
- blhack 16y ago
  What part of it did you think was misleading? At least according to this article, everything they said in it was true (and was supported by Tesla)
  - reitzensteinm 16y ago
    While it didn't directly involve Tesla, what got me about that episode was the claim that battery cars are totally irrelevent because of 'hydrogen power'. They point out that the power for electric batteries has to come from somewhere, and completely gloss over that for hydrogen. Why they didn't go all the way and advocate fusion powered cars is beyond me.
    - dnautics 16y ago
      you can make hydrogen via other means, directly from sunlight, for example, although admittedly that technology is not here yet.
      - borism 16y ago
        you mean the technology where you connect electrodes to solar panel or wind turbine, put them into water and hydrogen and oxygen come out?
        A1kmm 16y ago
        The energy has to come from somewhere, but it doesn't have to come from electricity (every conversion means energy is lost, and a light -> electricity -> water conversion is potentially less efficient than a more direct conversion). Hydrosol-2 (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrosol-2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrosol-2) is an example of solar hydrogen production with no electric current intermediate - it involves high temperatures, so I'm not sure how much energy is lost maintaining that temperature compared to captured producing hydrogen, but it could theoretically be more efficient.
      - Retric 16y ago
        His point was Hydrogen was just another form of battery.
        whatusername 16y ago
        Like Oil.
    - subway 16y ago
      Hydrogen is not an energy source, but a means by which to store energy. You know, like a battery.
      - reitzensteinm 16y ago
        Exactly my point. I've put hydrogen power in quotes in case that was unclear.
  - kwis 16y ago
    I saw the piece quite a while ago, but I found a bunch of things misleading: 1) The way they quoted the 55 mile range made it sound like the 55 mile range was more representative of normal use than the 200 mile figure. I don't recall them ever saying something like "Toyota claims it gets 20mpg, but we've worked out it only gets 3mpg on our test track". Maybe they have (perhaps they mentioned the Veyron's fuel consumption at full throttle), but it's certainly not a normal part of a review. 2) They quoted the charge time from a standard power socket, when nearly all charges would be done at a higher-power charging station at much shorter time. They didn't quote the faster charge time. 3) While watching, I seriously thought the one Tesla's engine had completely quit. 4) While watching, I seriously thought that the other Tesla's battery had gone completely dead without enough warning for them to drive it into the garage. 5) They implied that the environmental impact from the power plants is roughly the same as the environmental impact of gas anyway. (oddly showing nuclear cooling towers while talking about power plants causing global warming.) Power generation obviously has an environmental impact no matter where it's done, but the nuclear scare plus polar bear mention just felt bizarre. 6) They implied that somehow hydrogen was magical and had no environmental power generation issues. I don't disagree with their defense, but the piece felt very political in that it seemed designed to say things that are technically true, whilst leading viewers to conclusions that are false. All-in-all, I felt like I was watching Clarkson on an anti-environmental soapbox more than I was watching either a piece of entertainment or an automotive review. I love Top Gear, but I was annoyed by the piece, and it won't bother me a bit if Clarkson has a few obnoxious days because of it. The review would've been 1000x better if Hamster or Slow had done it.
    - bcaulf 16y ago
      In their Prius review Clarkson said there was a big gap between Toyota's stated 65 mpg and the 45 mpg they saw with normal driving on roads. So, they have noted manufacturer mpg exaggerations before although they don't do it as a normal practice.
      - schwabacher 16y ago
        Maybe only on environmentally friendly cars? *edit.. don't mean to be a dick, I just don't think this fact helps their case much. I watched the episode, and it irritated me quite a bit even though I think Top Gear is normally pretty fun.
machrider 16y ago
I don't know, I think if you're an enthusiast who cares about the environment, Clarkson isn't your favorite guy ever. I felt like the piece on the Tesla was pretty offensive in how biased it was, and I normally like the guys on Top Gear.
- khafra 16y ago
  I do think Clarkson is a bit over the top anti-conservation; but suing him for that seems like the worst possible response. Something along the lines of a clever rebuttal in the form of a short video could've scored them some goodwill points.
  - Quarrelsome 16y ago
    He's over the top because he plays it up. Its not a documentary. Its a play and the actors play roles to a degree of excess (although tbf their roles are pretty close to their real life personas).
- estel 16y ago
  I genuinely didn't feel as though the piece on Tesla was particularly biased though? Sure, they pointed out the flaws inherit to the car (recharge time) and filmed the car being pushed in for entertainment, but overall the piece still came across as pretty positive about the car: at times he was gushing about its performance and how enjoyable it could be to drive. I'm sure if I were invested in Tesla it's easy to feel that they're "biased" against me, but the review didn't come across as any more negative than 90% of car reviews on Top Gear.
  - olivercameron 16y ago
    Compared to a lot of car reviews on Top Gear, Tesla got off lightly.
    - nettdata 16y ago
      Just imagine if it were made in Mexico. EDIT: For those that don't get the reference, there is a running bit/theme on Top Gear about a so-called Mexican Supercar that was released a while ago. They've been thrashing it, and Mexico, ever since. So much so that the US version of Top Gear has been edited to remove the comments, and the Mexican Government has issued official communications about it. Just Google "top gear mexico supercar" and you'll see. It's not like I just randomly slammed Mexicans with this post. That's what the Dutch are for.
lyso 16y ago
I suspect it is about headlines. They have even taken out a google ad on the search "tesla top gear" pointing to teslavstopgear.co.uk However, the review is clearly heavily scripted (do Teslas really just run out of power and then require pushing down the road?). In the UK, the powers-that-be at the BBC have recently taken a dim view of this sort of constructed TV posing as reality (after "Socksgate" and "Sachsgate", an explanation of which is probably beyond the scope of this discussion...).
c2 16y ago
I think you are VASTLY overstating the importance of Top Gear, which is essentially an entertainment talk show which happens to talk about cars.
- dman 16y ago
  Name another entertainment show which talks about cars and has Top Gears global reach.
  - nettdata 16y ago
    Sure, they're the global leaders when it comes to automotive ENTERTAINMENT, but that is precisely because they are entertaining, not journalistic. Just about EVERY "review" they do on cars is heavily biased, and in more than a few cases, outrageously so. Anyone who watches the show without understanding that it is entertainment, first and foremost, needs to lighten up, get a sense of humour, and not take themselves so seriously. Those are the types that TG go out of their way to ridicule on the show.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
- robryan 16y ago
  This is kind of like how we discuss things like privacy concerns on Facebook here where the vast majority don't care. Sure there are real motoring enthusiasts talking about stuff where TopGear is irrelevant, but for the rest of the world, the vast majority, I don't think this is the case.
flojo 16y ago
I could not agree with your more. Even if there was nothing wrong with the car. What Tesla should have done is, take it on the chin, say something in the lines of 'we will correct and make it better', even though nothing is wrong, and then do a retest, and simply have that test on their terms. And then really, they could have gone from good to great.

by dman 16y ago

trafficlight 16y ago

Just look how it turned out for Morris Marina fans.

kwis 16y ago

I've got a deposit down on a Model S, and I don't think I could care less one way or the other. I thought the review was misleading and stupid, and I think the lawsuit is a stupid response. But whatever, I'm still excited about the Model S.

protomyth 16y ago
Since you have a deposit down, just out of curiosity, are you a home owner?
blhack 16y ago
What part of it did you think was misleading? At least according to this article, everything they said in it was true (and was supported by Tesla)
- reitzensteinm 16y ago
  While it didn't directly involve Tesla, what got me about that episode was the claim that battery cars are totally irrelevent because of 'hydrogen power'. They point out that the power for electric batteries has to come from somewhere, and completely gloss over that for hydrogen. Why they didn't go all the way and advocate fusion powered cars is beyond me.
  - dnautics 16y ago
    you can make hydrogen via other means, directly from sunlight, for example, although admittedly that technology is not here yet.
    - borism 16y ago
      you mean the technology where you connect electrodes to solar panel or wind turbine, put them into water and hydrogen and oxygen come out?
      - A1kmm 16y ago
        The energy has to come from somewhere, but it doesn't have to come from electricity (every conversion means energy is lost, and a light -> electricity -> water conversion is potentially less efficient than a more direct conversion). Hydrosol-2 (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrosol-2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrosol-2) is an example of solar hydrogen production with no electric current intermediate - it involves high temperatures, so I'm not sure how much energy is lost maintaining that temperature compared to captured producing hydrogen, but it could theoretically be more efficient.
    - Retric 16y ago
      His point was Hydrogen was just another form of battery.
      - whatusername 16y ago
        Like Oil.
  - subway 16y ago
    Hydrogen is not an energy source, but a means by which to store energy. You know, like a battery.
    - reitzensteinm 16y ago
      Exactly my point. I've put hydrogen power in quotes in case that was unclear.
- kwis 16y ago
  I saw the piece quite a while ago, but I found a bunch of things misleading: 1) The way they quoted the 55 mile range made it sound like the 55 mile range was more representative of normal use than the 200 mile figure. I don't recall them ever saying something like "Toyota claims it gets 20mpg, but we've worked out it only gets 3mpg on our test track". Maybe they have (perhaps they mentioned the Veyron's fuel consumption at full throttle), but it's certainly not a normal part of a review. 2) They quoted the charge time from a standard power socket, when nearly all charges would be done at a higher-power charging station at much shorter time. They didn't quote the faster charge time. 3) While watching, I seriously thought the one Tesla's engine had completely quit. 4) While watching, I seriously thought that the other Tesla's battery had gone completely dead without enough warning for them to drive it into the garage. 5) They implied that the environmental impact from the power plants is roughly the same as the environmental impact of gas anyway. (oddly showing nuclear cooling towers while talking about power plants causing global warming.) Power generation obviously has an environmental impact no matter where it's done, but the nuclear scare plus polar bear mention just felt bizarre. 6) They implied that somehow hydrogen was magical and had no environmental power generation issues. I don't disagree with their defense, but the piece felt very political in that it seemed designed to say things that are technically true, whilst leading viewers to conclusions that are false. All-in-all, I felt like I was watching Clarkson on an anti-environmental soapbox more than I was watching either a piece of entertainment or an automotive review. I love Top Gear, but I was annoyed by the piece, and it won't bother me a bit if Clarkson has a few obnoxious days because of it. The review would've been 1000x better if Hamster or Slow had done it.
  - bcaulf 16y ago
    In their Prius review Clarkson said there was a big gap between Toyota's stated 65 mpg and the 45 mpg they saw with normal driving on roads. So, they have noted manufacturer mpg exaggerations before although they don't do it as a normal practice.
    - schwabacher 16y ago
      Maybe only on environmentally friendly cars? *edit.. don't mean to be a dick, I just don't think this fact helps their case much. I watched the episode, and it irritated me quite a bit even though I think Top Gear is normally pretty fun.

machrider 16y ago

I don't know, I think if you're an enthusiast who cares about the environment, Clarkson isn't your favorite guy ever. I felt like the piece on the Tesla was pretty offensive in how biased it was, and I normally like the guys on Top Gear.

khafra 16y ago
I do think Clarkson is a bit over the top anti-conservation; but suing him for that seems like the worst possible response. Something along the lines of a clever rebuttal in the form of a short video could've scored them some goodwill points.
- Quarrelsome 16y ago
  He's over the top because he plays it up. Its not a documentary. Its a play and the actors play roles to a degree of excess (although tbf their roles are pretty close to their real life personas).
estel 16y ago
I genuinely didn't feel as though the piece on Tesla was particularly biased though? Sure, they pointed out the flaws inherit to the car (recharge time) and filmed the car being pushed in for entertainment, but overall the piece still came across as pretty positive about the car: at times he was gushing about its performance and how enjoyable it could be to drive. I'm sure if I were invested in Tesla it's easy to feel that they're "biased" against me, but the review didn't come across as any more negative than 90% of car reviews on Top Gear.
- olivercameron 16y ago
  Compared to a lot of car reviews on Top Gear, Tesla got off lightly.
  - nettdata 16y ago
    Just imagine if it were made in Mexico. EDIT: For those that don't get the reference, there is a running bit/theme on Top Gear about a so-called Mexican Supercar that was released a while ago. They've been thrashing it, and Mexico, ever since. So much so that the US version of Top Gear has been edited to remove the comments, and the Mexican Government has issued official communications about it. Just Google "top gear mexico supercar" and you'll see. It's not like I just randomly slammed Mexicans with this post. That's what the Dutch are for.

lyso 16y ago

I suspect it is about headlines. They have even taken out a google ad on the search "tesla top gear" pointing to teslavstopgear.co.uk However, the review is clearly heavily scripted (do Teslas really just run out of power and then require pushing down the road?). In the UK, the powers-that-be at the BBC have recently taken a dim view of this sort of constructed TV posing as reality (after "Socksgate" and "Sachsgate", an explanation of which is probably beyond the scope of this discussion...).

c2 16y ago

I think you are VASTLY overstating the importance of Top Gear, which is essentially an entertainment talk show which happens to talk about cars.

dman 16y ago
Name another entertainment show which talks about cars and has Top Gears global reach.
- nettdata 16y ago
  Sure, they're the global leaders when it comes to automotive ENTERTAINMENT, but that is precisely because they are entertaining, not journalistic. Just about EVERY "review" they do on cars is heavily biased, and in more than a few cases, outrageously so. Anyone who watches the show without understanding that it is entertainment, first and foremost, needs to lighten up, get a sense of humour, and not take themselves so seriously. Those are the types that TG go out of their way to ridicule on the show.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
robryan 16y ago
This is kind of like how we discuss things like privacy concerns on Facebook here where the vast majority don't care. Sure there are real motoring enthusiasts talking about stuff where TopGear is irrelevant, but for the rest of the world, the vast majority, I don't think this is the case.

flojo 16y ago

I could not agree with your more. Even if there was nothing wrong with the car. What Tesla should have done is, take it on the chin, say something in the lines of 'we will correct and make it better', even though nothing is wrong, and then do a retest, and simply have that test on their terms. And then really, they could have gone from good to great.