7 ms·

No one really goes to college and grad school to learn. Higher ed is commoditized as a: * insurance policy, where students use it to avoid limiting themselves

No one really goes to college and grad school to learn. Higher ed is commoditized as a: * insurance policy, where students use it to avoid limiting themselves to low-status and low-paying careers * lottery ticket, the gateway to a "prestige" career track [1] * status signaling mechanism, where young people flex their educational elitism [2] And higher ed is arguably bad at what its supposed be good at - a delivery mechanism of relevant knowledge. If you have ever interviewed a fresh grad who didn't study "Cracking the Coding Interview" or did not have a few "side projects" under their belt, then you know what I am talking about.[3] The internet is the most effective information distribution delivery and it's much cheaper, no wonder the value of college is in question. [1] Consulting, finance, corporate middle management, grad school [2] How many times have you been on a date and you tell or ask the other person where they wen to college, what they majored in, etc [3] Arguably, the standard that hiring managers set for new grads is too high. Perhaps it's the employer that should be training fresh grads, but that is not how the current job market works. I think about this a lot because it causes problems for both young people and employers.

throwawaygh 6y ago
> If you have ever interviewed a fresh grad who didn't study "Cracking the Coding Interview" Goodhart's Law. > or did not have a few "side projects" under their belt IME: end-of-course projects at places like MIT and Carneige Mellon are often much more impressive than the CRUD web app or copy-pasta Jupyter notebooks I tend to see from e.g. coding bootcamps or especially self-taught applicants. And students usually have a half dozen or more of those, in addition to internship projects. Sometimes a self-taught person comes along with a genuinely impressive project, and I push hard to hire those folks. But for the most part it's silly little single-person-project web apps and such. > The internet is the most effective information distribution delivery and it's much cheaper, no wonder the value of college is in question. The questioning only really has a loud voice in places like the USA with horrendously expensive higher ed systems. I don't really hear a lot of griping about the cost of education or opining on internet alternatives when I'm in Munich or Vienna.
- flyingfences 6y ago
  > end-of-course projects at places like MIT and Carneige Mellon Very few students study at places like MIT and Carnegie Mellon. They typical CS program, even the typical "good but not exemplary" CS program, does not direct students to produce "projects" on nearly the same level. I even went to a college that has a well-regarded senior capstone project for its traditional engineering majors, but the CS equivalent felt far more low-effort and unconsequential. Among my classmates, the ones who had significant side projects and internship/co-op results were the ones with preferential outcomes and the ones who only had end-of-course projects to show were the ones with "typical" outcomes.
  - throwawaygh 6y ago
    Certainly, but lots of places do. The non-flagship state uni a lot of my friends went to had fantastic project-based coursework in CS. Acceptance rate is like 70% and tuition is very affordable. Agreed that ENG departments tend to do better at this, especially at mid-tier state schools. CS departments need to take project-based work and especially capstones much more seriously.
- hazz99 6y ago
  What sort of things do you see in these end-of-course projects? Genuinely curious
  - augustt 6y ago
    Some random classes that come to mind: Electronics: https://www.google.com/search?q=6.115+final+projects https://www.google.com/search?q=6.115+final+projects Interactive music: https://vimeo.com/user42907764 https://vimeo.com/user42907764 Product design: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqKSAz3yxMM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqKSAz3yxMM
  - muffinman26 6y ago
    At the University of Washington (which consistently ranks at the level of MIT and Stanford for Computer Science), someone with a bachelor's in Computer Science would generally be expected to complete at least two of: * Operating Systems: Either implement lock/fork, assorted system calls, and virtual memory for OS/161; or implement a device driver. * Networks: Implement the Tor protocol or a project of similar complexity. * Compilers: Implement a compiler for simplified Java including at least constant propagation or a similar optimization. * Animation: A year-long course series that culminates with animating a few-minute long movie. * A small video game. * A Maps-style program for finding the shortest walk between any two locations on campus, including displaying that information. This one was required for Computer Science. All but the last of these were done in groups of 2-3 people. It might have been theoretically possible to graduate with only one big project, if you took machine learning, security (the final project for this one was finding an exploit in Firefox, but no actual code was required), and some heavy theory classes. Most people would have done at least 3-4 big projects like this.
ausbah 6y ago
status signaling has a bigger impact to employers as a basic signal of competency I think the deluge of undergrad degrees is the cause of this? a degree isn't a meaningful differentiate? rather just a expected baseline all prospective employees must have
tjr225 6y ago
> Perhaps it's the employer that should be training fresh grads, but that is not how the current job market works. Funnily enough that is effectively what happens in many cases anyway. You still need to shell out the 40k for the undergrad degree to even get the opportunity to learn on the job.
7402 6y ago
> No one really goes to college and grad school to learn. I went to college and grad school to learn.
ThrowawayR2 6y ago
Apparently, I'm among the select few who learned things during my college years and actually apply it professionally. Go me. The fact that most software developer jobs of the present day don't really make use of a college education says more about the profession of software development than the value of getting a degree. Software development is becoming a commoditized, blue collar job that anybody off the street can do and that will have long term impact on the market value of ordinary developers.
kiba 6y ago
And higher ed is arguably bad at what its supposed be good at - a delivery mechanism of relevant knowledge. If you have ever interviewed a fresh grad who didn't study "Cracking the Coding Interview" or did not have a few "side projects" under their belt, then you know what I am talking about.[3] The internet is the most effective information distribution delivery and it's much cheaper, no wonder the value of college is in question. I don't think it's true. Colleges and education in general are teaching people. But it's more like drinking from a firehose. But nobody cares about effort to retain what you drank from said firehose, so 90% to maybe 99% of it basically disappears into ether, unless you're in a profession that actually makes use of what you're taught.
kickopotomus 6y ago
> No one really goes to college and grad school to learn I did. As did many of my classmates. I've found engineering fascinating since I was a child so I enjoyed the opportunity. > How many times have you been on a date and you tell or ask the other person where they wen to college, what they majored in, etc How is this "[flexing] educational elitism"? That is standard small talk to gauge another person's life experience and interests.
- JamesBarney 6y ago
  > I did. As did many of my classmates. I've found engineering fascinating since I was a child so I enjoyed the opportunity. I was told from a young age college was about learning and not grades. I believed that lie, aggressively optimized for learning over grades and that was a huge mistake. Several times I skipped doing boring unnecessary homework or going to a useless class to work on projects that would teach me more. I would routinely do things like skip class to go above and beyond on interesting projects. Despite getting above a 90 on all of my projects and exams, I graduated with a 2.4. I would routinely have calls with potential employers where they would say "wow after talking to you we're really impressed with your knowledge of c.s. and the projects you've completed. Oh btw I didn't see your gpa on your resume, what was it? Oh, I'm sorry. We only take people who have a gpa about 2.5/3.0/3.5. but don't worry you seem super personable and smart I know you're going to find something". Now I tell all of my younger siblings. Optimize for grades and that's the only thing that matters. You can always pick up a book but you'll never be able to fix your gpa. My 2.4 and my wife's 4.0 continue to influence our lives (albeit now much more mildly) 10 years later.

throwawaygh 6y ago

> If you have ever interviewed a fresh grad who didn't study "Cracking the Coding Interview" Goodhart's Law. > or did not have a few "side projects" under their belt IME: end-of-course projects at places like MIT and Carneige Mellon are often much more impressive than the CRUD web app or copy-pasta Jupyter notebooks I tend to see from e.g. coding bootcamps or especially self-taught applicants. And students usually have a half dozen or more of those, in addition to internship projects. Sometimes a self-taught person comes along with a genuinely impressive project, and I push hard to hire those folks. But for the most part it's silly little single-person-project web apps and such. > The internet is the most effective information distribution delivery and it's much cheaper, no wonder the value of college is in question. The questioning only really has a loud voice in places like the USA with horrendously expensive higher ed systems. I don't really hear a lot of griping about the cost of education or opining on internet alternatives when I'm in Munich or Vienna.

flyingfences 6y ago
> end-of-course projects at places like MIT and Carneige Mellon Very few students study at places like MIT and Carnegie Mellon. They typical CS program, even the typical "good but not exemplary" CS program, does not direct students to produce "projects" on nearly the same level. I even went to a college that has a well-regarded senior capstone project for its traditional engineering majors, but the CS equivalent felt far more low-effort and unconsequential. Among my classmates, the ones who had significant side projects and internship/co-op results were the ones with preferential outcomes and the ones who only had end-of-course projects to show were the ones with "typical" outcomes.
- throwawaygh 6y ago
  Certainly, but lots of places do. The non-flagship state uni a lot of my friends went to had fantastic project-based coursework in CS. Acceptance rate is like 70% and tuition is very affordable. Agreed that ENG departments tend to do better at this, especially at mid-tier state schools. CS departments need to take project-based work and especially capstones much more seriously.
hazz99 6y ago
What sort of things do you see in these end-of-course projects? Genuinely curious
- augustt 6y ago
  Some random classes that come to mind: Electronics: https://www.google.com/search?q=6.115+final+projects https://www.google.com/search?q=6.115+final+projects Interactive music: https://vimeo.com/user42907764 https://vimeo.com/user42907764 Product design: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqKSAz3yxMM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqKSAz3yxMM
- muffinman26 6y ago
  At the University of Washington (which consistently ranks at the level of MIT and Stanford for Computer Science), someone with a bachelor's in Computer Science would generally be expected to complete at least two of: * Operating Systems: Either implement lock/fork, assorted system calls, and virtual memory for OS/161; or implement a device driver. * Networks: Implement the Tor protocol or a project of similar complexity. * Compilers: Implement a compiler for simplified Java including at least constant propagation or a similar optimization. * Animation: A year-long course series that culminates with animating a few-minute long movie. * A small video game. * A Maps-style program for finding the shortest walk between any two locations on campus, including displaying that information. This one was required for Computer Science. All but the last of these were done in groups of 2-3 people. It might have been theoretically possible to graduate with only one big project, if you took machine learning, security (the final project for this one was finding an exploit in Firefox, but no actual code was required), and some heavy theory classes. Most people would have done at least 3-4 big projects like this.

ausbah 6y ago

status signaling has a bigger impact to employers as a basic signal of competency I think the deluge of undergrad degrees is the cause of this? a degree isn't a meaningful differentiate? rather just a expected baseline all prospective employees must have

tjr225 6y ago

> Perhaps it's the employer that should be training fresh grads, but that is not how the current job market works. Funnily enough that is effectively what happens in many cases anyway. You still need to shell out the 40k for the undergrad degree to even get the opportunity to learn on the job.

7402 6y ago

> No one really goes to college and grad school to learn. I went to college and grad school to learn.

ThrowawayR2 6y ago

Apparently, I'm among the select few who learned things during my college years and actually apply it professionally. Go me. The fact that most software developer jobs of the present day don't really make use of a college education says more about the profession of software development than the value of getting a degree. Software development is becoming a commoditized, blue collar job that anybody off the street can do and that will have long term impact on the market value of ordinary developers.

kiba 6y ago

And higher ed is arguably bad at what its supposed be good at - a delivery mechanism of relevant knowledge. If you have ever interviewed a fresh grad who didn't study "Cracking the Coding Interview" or did not have a few "side projects" under their belt, then you know what I am talking about.[3] The internet is the most effective information distribution delivery and it's much cheaper, no wonder the value of college is in question. I don't think it's true. Colleges and education in general are teaching people. But it's more like drinking from a firehose. But nobody cares about effort to retain what you drank from said firehose, so 90% to maybe 99% of it basically disappears into ether, unless you're in a profession that actually makes use of what you're taught.

kickopotomus 6y ago

> No one really goes to college and grad school to learn I did. As did many of my classmates. I've found engineering fascinating since I was a child so I enjoyed the opportunity. > How many times have you been on a date and you tell or ask the other person where they wen to college, what they majored in, etc How is this "[flexing] educational elitism"? That is standard small talk to gauge another person's life experience and interests.

JamesBarney 6y ago
> I did. As did many of my classmates. I've found engineering fascinating since I was a child so I enjoyed the opportunity. I was told from a young age college was about learning and not grades. I believed that lie, aggressively optimized for learning over grades and that was a huge mistake. Several times I skipped doing boring unnecessary homework or going to a useless class to work on projects that would teach me more. I would routinely do things like skip class to go above and beyond on interesting projects. Despite getting above a 90 on all of my projects and exams, I graduated with a 2.4. I would routinely have calls with potential employers where they would say "wow after talking to you we're really impressed with your knowledge of c.s. and the projects you've completed. Oh btw I didn't see your gpa on your resume, what was it? Oh, I'm sorry. We only take people who have a gpa about 2.5/3.0/3.5. but don't worry you seem super personable and smart I know you're going to find something". Now I tell all of my younger siblings. Optimize for grades and that's the only thing that matters. You can always pick up a book but you'll never be able to fix your gpa. My 2.4 and my wife's 4.0 continue to influence our lives (albeit now much more mildly) 10 years later.