4 ms·

I think we should bring back the guild system. Start a job as an apprentice, mentor with a journeyman, progress your way up, mentor apprentices while learning f

I think we should bring back the guild system. Start a job as an apprentice, mentor with a journeyman, progress your way up, mentor apprentices while learning from others higher up, gain sufficient knowledge to build your masterpiece, graduate as a master in your field, mentor journeymen. Move on.

Arkdy 6y ago
8th Light is a software company that's been explicitly practicing apprenticeship for like 12 years https://8thlight.com/blog/ryan-verner/2019/01/15/evolution-of-apprenticeship.html https://8thlight.com/blog/ryan-verner/2019/01/15/evolution-o...
- C1sc0cat 6y ago
  As someone who came into the industry through the vocational track this is interesting. But it is confusing are 8th Light acting as a source of training for other companies or just internal use. How many years is it 4 / 5 what certification do you get at the end? Why are you using "trade" terminology normally those doing "advanced apprenticeship" where associate professions and calling us "apprentices" would have got you a hard look. when I did mine in the UK I was a Junior member of the IMECHE on the path way to full chartered (PE) membership It does seem a bit light how long is the apprenticeship If FANG companies where serious about training / diversity this is what they should be doing take bright high school kids at 18/19 and sign them up for a proper 4/5 year apprenticeship.
psychometry 6y ago
Who's going to pay for someone to be unproductive at their job? Corporations surely don't want to anymore.
- stillbourne 6y ago
  You mean you can't have lower level people working on bug fixes and small tasks while you save bigger more difficult work for more advanced people? Who says they won't be productive? What is your measure of productivity?
  - psychometry 6y ago
    I'm talking about the fact that hiring managers expect applicants to have 100% of the listed skills for any position because their corporations would rather spend money on stock buybacks than employee training.
    - Apocryphon 6y ago
      Maybe this is one area where legislation can help enforce a social norm. Corporate training used to be practiced at prior generations of generations- IBM, GE, HP, etc. With corporate profits at the levels at they are today, Big Tech can afford to spend a little more on expanding internship and training opportunities.
      - ByteJockey 6y ago
        People also used to stay at the same company for 30-40 years. Personally, when I look for a job, I'm not willing to commit to 30-40 years. I think that part would have to change as well.
mjollnir 6y ago
I'm not sure it went anywhere, because this is a pretty accurate description of the PhD system.
- stillbourne 6y ago
  I wouldn't know, I'm just a high school dropout, but if they barrier of entry to getting into a PhD "guild-system" is to also go through Associates, Bachelor, and Master degree, then I don't think its worthwhile for 90% of jobs that only require technical mastery.
- blaser-waffle 6y ago
  Ph.D's get paid a pittance relative to what they do... and for like 3-5 years. Apprenticeships for things like plumbers and electricians pay a decent wage interspersed with education. On the long term a Ph.D may do better than a Master Electrician, but in the short term it's a way better deal. My friend out of HS who started working for Nissan and then Infinity was making 60k+ before he was 21. He's capped at around that much -- like 60-70k -- but most of our high-school friend circle wasn't making that kind of money until our late 20s (and at least one became a teacher, and still doesn't get that much in terms of pure cash comp).
rayiner 6y ago
Guilds are awful for immigrants and racial minorities, who are often the new entrants excluded by the guilds. Many “Jewish law firms” exist to this day because Jews were excluded from existing WASP law firms.
- ghostpepper 6y ago
  I’m trying to think of why it would be worse. Is it because skills become less transferable, thus making it harder for an apprentice to move from one master to another? Perhaps that is by design - companies are wary of investing time and money training junior employees because they can just leave before the investment pays for itself? Not sure what the answer is here; just playing devil’s advocate.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    It’s because it gives guilds the power to control the pipeline of skilled labor and exclude new entrants to limit supply. Guilds are generally run by their members, and the existing members are much more likely to be white and native born than potential new entrants. Their management structure also makes it more likely that prejudices will be acted upon. When public unions became a thing in the 1960s and 1970s, they systematically excluded Black people, for example.
    - hajile 6y ago
      A federal government can dictate what it thinks morality should be, but in practice cannot enforce morality in a free country. Even in the US South, the vast majority of millennials and gen Z are not racist. They aren't in political power yet, but in the next 20 years or so, they will be and the zeitgeist of the area will finish its shift (even the people currently in power are abolitionists compared to the previous generations). Travel the world and you'll see that (perhaps outside some European countries) the US of today is just about the least racist country in existence. Guilds/Unions formed today won't have the same issues as ones from 50-60 years ago because the general view of people today isn't what it was back then.

Arkdy 6y ago

8th Light is a software company that's been explicitly practicing apprenticeship for like 12 years https://8thlight.com/blog/ryan-verner/2019/01/15/evolution-of-apprenticeship.html https://8thlight.com/blog/ryan-verner/2019/01/15/evolution-o...

C1sc0cat 6y ago
As someone who came into the industry through the vocational track this is interesting. But it is confusing are 8th Light acting as a source of training for other companies or just internal use. How many years is it 4 / 5 what certification do you get at the end? Why are you using "trade" terminology normally those doing "advanced apprenticeship" where associate professions and calling us "apprentices" would have got you a hard look. when I did mine in the UK I was a Junior member of the IMECHE on the path way to full chartered (PE) membership It does seem a bit light how long is the apprenticeship If FANG companies where serious about training / diversity this is what they should be doing take bright high school kids at 18/19 and sign them up for a proper 4/5 year apprenticeship.

psychometry 6y ago

Who's going to pay for someone to be unproductive at their job? Corporations surely don't want to anymore.

stillbourne 6y ago
You mean you can't have lower level people working on bug fixes and small tasks while you save bigger more difficult work for more advanced people? Who says they won't be productive? What is your measure of productivity?
- psychometry 6y ago
  I'm talking about the fact that hiring managers expect applicants to have 100% of the listed skills for any position because their corporations would rather spend money on stock buybacks than employee training.
  - Apocryphon 6y ago
    Maybe this is one area where legislation can help enforce a social norm. Corporate training used to be practiced at prior generations of generations- IBM, GE, HP, etc. With corporate profits at the levels at they are today, Big Tech can afford to spend a little more on expanding internship and training opportunities.
    - ByteJockey 6y ago
      People also used to stay at the same company for 30-40 years. Personally, when I look for a job, I'm not willing to commit to 30-40 years. I think that part would have to change as well.

mjollnir 6y ago

I'm not sure it went anywhere, because this is a pretty accurate description of the PhD system.

stillbourne 6y ago
I wouldn't know, I'm just a high school dropout, but if they barrier of entry to getting into a PhD "guild-system" is to also go through Associates, Bachelor, and Master degree, then I don't think its worthwhile for 90% of jobs that only require technical mastery.
blaser-waffle 6y ago
Ph.D's get paid a pittance relative to what they do... and for like 3-5 years. Apprenticeships for things like plumbers and electricians pay a decent wage interspersed with education. On the long term a Ph.D may do better than a Master Electrician, but in the short term it's a way better deal. My friend out of HS who started working for Nissan and then Infinity was making 60k+ before he was 21. He's capped at around that much -- like 60-70k -- but most of our high-school friend circle wasn't making that kind of money until our late 20s (and at least one became a teacher, and still doesn't get that much in terms of pure cash comp).

rayiner 6y ago

Guilds are awful for immigrants and racial minorities, who are often the new entrants excluded by the guilds. Many “Jewish law firms” exist to this day because Jews were excluded from existing WASP law firms.

ghostpepper 6y ago
I’m trying to think of why it would be worse. Is it because skills become less transferable, thus making it harder for an apprentice to move from one master to another? Perhaps that is by design - companies are wary of investing time and money training junior employees because they can just leave before the investment pays for itself? Not sure what the answer is here; just playing devil’s advocate.
- rayiner 6y ago
  It’s because it gives guilds the power to control the pipeline of skilled labor and exclude new entrants to limit supply. Guilds are generally run by their members, and the existing members are much more likely to be white and native born than potential new entrants. Their management structure also makes it more likely that prejudices will be acted upon. When public unions became a thing in the 1960s and 1970s, they systematically excluded Black people, for example.
  - hajile 6y ago
    A federal government can dictate what it thinks morality should be, but in practice cannot enforce morality in a free country. Even in the US South, the vast majority of millennials and gen Z are not racist. They aren't in political power yet, but in the next 20 years or so, they will be and the zeitgeist of the area will finish its shift (even the people currently in power are abolitionists compared to the previous generations). Travel the world and you'll see that (perhaps outside some European countries) the US of today is just about the least racist country in existence. Guilds/Unions formed today won't have the same issues as ones from 50-60 years ago because the general view of people today isn't what it was back then.