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You caught yourself in a trap (similar to which I also did). Yes, your parents were assholes. What has to be realized is that yes: your parents were assholes a

You caught yourself in a trap (similar to which I also did). Yes, your parents were assholes. What has to be realized is that yes: your parents were assholes and this probably did had a (severly) negative effect in your PRACTICAL life. But what must be understood is that what is done is done. This doesn't meat that you say "my parents are ok". This means that you, on a deep level, realize that your parents have issues, and that those issues caused them to act out. In other words: they didn't knew any better. The side effect of their issues was that your life was misarable, so you moved away from them. What has to be understood is that yes, you indeed were at a disadvantage. But now that you moved away it's only up to you what you make of this. You don't have to visit them or call them. What is meant by "forgiveness" is that you have to realize that "yes, your parents have issues and there is nothing that can be done about it. But now I'm free of them, so from now on it's up to me". Forgiveness also means that you don't actively hate on your parents: ironicaly hating your parents will NOT hurt them: you will only hurt yourself by hating on them because you yourself will create self-conflit & rage & hate withing YOURLSEF. So it's more of a "what happened happened, I'm free of them now so from now on it's up to me" + the realization that actively hating on them will only hurt you, not them!

scottious 6y ago
Recently mother showed up unannounced at my house in tears and SCREAMED at my wife and I for HOURS and wouldn't leave. It was an absolute ambush. The reason? She wanted to get together earlier in the day but we had an appointment so we had to postpone it to later in the day. yes, that's all it takes. Our son was TEN DAYS OLD at the time. That was 18 months ago. Since then she's been the nastiest, most unpleasant person to be around and my father is condescending as hell and still tries to boss me around at 35 years old. This doesn't really feel like a "the past is the past, people have flaws". This more feels like an assault on my day-to-day life. It has been like this since I was a kid and I see not even the slightest bit of progress or self-reflection. When do I just call it quits?
- rowanG077 6y ago
  Cut them out. You are forcing yourself into victimhood by including them in your life.
- Kwantuum 6y ago
  > When do I just call it quits? Ten years ago. The second best time is right now. You do not have to take abuse from them because they are family. "the past is the past, people have flaws" is only valid for things that are actually in the past. Sounds like your parents' abuse would be much easier to deal with if it was a part of the past.
- elsigh 6y ago
  Why not move and call it quits? That might actually enable you to forgive them (from afar). Calling it quits was the first step in my forgiveness towards my parents. You could send them occasional updates but you shouldn't feel like you're obligated to otherwise engage (at least for a period of like 6 months - and then reevaluate).
- OneGuy123 6y ago
  Get yourself a restraining order. And no, this is not an exageration. Threaten her that she will never she her grandchildren again. It's not your responsibility to try and help your mother. The need/willingness for change has to come from her. If she won't even consider that it might be her fault and not yours she is a loss cause. Until she realize this she is a lost cause and you are doing yourself a disfavor by guilt-tripping over her letting her upset your life.
  - mucholove 6y ago
    Don’t threaten them if you don’t mean do it. Really. A baseless threat will put your mother in the role of the victim—and the power of the victim role will let her throw more abuse on you. She will feel entitled to say nasty things. Getting the restraining order or some similar action that cuts her off is what will free you from the role of the victim. From this place you can take pity on her. You have taken action to eliminate the oppressor. Maybe more will be needed. If you are ever so frustrated as to feel helpless about doing that “more which might be needed” then you are back at victim. Good luck! PPS — look up the drama triangle and the corresponding empowerment triangle. Might be useful ;)
- jhardy54 6y ago
  > When do I just call it quits? If your partner's mom was treating them this way, or if your son was being treated this way, when would you want them to call it quits? I know you well enough to feel good about making a suggestion, but I can share my data point: I called it quits with one of my parents after putting up some boundaries (~"I love you but it doesn't feel good when you call and text me every few hours or unexpected show up at my work") and they responded very negatively. My metric: if anyone (from a total stranger to a romantic partner) ever talked to me that way, I'd cut contact immediately. We have no obligation to be outlets for abusive behavior. I'm probably going to talk to a therapist about it because I want to make sure I'm covering all my bases, but most of the time it feels like a net positive to have called it quits. I hope you can find some peace and balance, with or without the relationship with your mom. I'll be thinking of you, and I'm happy to chat if you're ever looking for perspective from the other side of the fence. Also: https://old.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists https://old.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists
- devonkim 6y ago
  Unfortunately, narcissists will never learn and any and all problems are because others are the problem unless a truly catastrophic event forced a major reality check on them given what I’ve read so far. Even on a relative scale of attempting to self-reflect they’ll believe they’re “compromising” when it’s not really helpful. It may be helpful to view narcissists as having a mental disability rather than it being simply a part of their personality. And when people are destructive to others’ lives few cultures would say we should accommodate the minority to a fault.
- heimatau 6y ago
  Sounds like she is constantly violating your boundaries. Based on the abusive behavior of the past, it seems like you're also enabling the bad behavior. When dealing with adults, put clear boundaries in place (don't come to my house unannounced, don't scream at my wife, nor come in my home to scream, etc) and if she violates your boundaries, then give her a timeout (she's not allowed to see me/my family/my child for a week). If it's egregious, you'll need to cut her out permanently. I had to with my mother. (P.S. I've also forgiven her [I hold no grudge towards her and her shitty/abusive decisions throughout my childhood] but...she's still not in my life)
- igneo676 6y ago
  Establish firm boundaries and, if they're transgressed, cut off your parents. Period. Zero contact, even if they show up on your front door screaming. For me, it was the most difficult thing I'd ever done. The benefits for you and your family though are worth fighting for and it's the only way you might have some semblance of a relationship with your parents in the future. You don't deserve that treatment. The book Boundaries: When to Say Yes, How to Say No to Take Control of Your Life by Henry Cloud and John Townsend is what helped me work through this. It's definitely written for people who are Christians, but I've heard secular people recommend it heavily. Finally, seek a therapist. If you're like me, you've been broken in ways you can't even identify and a professional will help you work through that. Good luck
TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
But you're not free until you deal with the PTSD, and a trite "I forgive you" is absolutely no help with this. Nor is pretending to everyone - including yourself - that you're just fine with the past when you really aren't. Worse, it implies a social pressure to "just deal with it" which is completely inappropriate and can be actively harmful. Good therapists and good therapy can help a lot. The modality doesn't matter as long as it's clearly being helpful. But cliches about forgiveness are utterly unhelpful to most people who were exposed to real emotional and psychological harm - whether it was a random drive-by crime, a work situation, a toxic relationship, or dysfunctional family dynamics.
- voisin 6y ago
  > Nor is pretending to everyone - including yourself - that you're just fine with the past when you really aren't. I don’t think forgiveness is about pretending you are fine with something you are not fine with. It isn’t about covering something up or lying. It is about taking back control of your feelings about the situation so that you can move toward a place of healing. Most people have suffered some form of trauma in their lives, and some choose to dwell on it while looking for the person or situation that brought that trauma to apologize or try to make the situation right. This is giving control of your feelings over to some third party. Forgiveness is saying “I am releasing my own need for you to be part of my healing journey.”
  - ksdale 6y ago
    This is well said. I think some people view this as liberating themselves, and some people view this as letting the offender get away with it. For me personally, it feels oppressive to require anything from the person who wronged me. The fact that they wronged me indicates that perhaps they don't value my happiness as much as they should, and now my happiness is predicated on them acting the right way? This isn't to say I wouldn't try to, say, get my money back if I got scammed, but making my happiness contingent on the contrition of the scammer seems to give them emotional control in addition to my money, which is even worse.
    - 6y ago
serverholic 6y ago
But aren't you just redefining terms? I'm wary whenever someone says "I really mean X when I say Y." Why not just say Y in the first place?
johnchristopher 6y ago
A mantra that I like: “It's not your fault, but it's your responsibility to try to fix things.”
MegaButts 6y ago
Why do you assume his/her parents didn't know any better? Some people really are selfish and malicious. You're going out of your way to assume the best when you don't actually have any reason to believe that's true.
- proto-n 6y ago
  There's a general sentiment that all dogs are innocent at heart. If the dog has bad or mean behavior, that's the consequence of its bad experiences, like being outcast as a stray, bad owners, having been hurt before, etc. You can apply the same line of thinking to humans. Everyone is a victim of their circumatances and experiences. And while I understand that "everyone is innocent at heart" might be true to only some degree both with humans and dogs (nature vs nurture, etc), you can't really tell by the end result.
  - serverholic 6y ago
    Even if they are born that way you can still look upon them with pity. They didn't choose their parents and they didn't choose how the wiring of their brain.
HumblyTossed 6y ago
> ... so from now on it's up to me It's... not that easy. We're all wired a little differently and trauma twists that wiring even more. Some people are less resilient than others and need more help moving on. This is not a condemnation of those people. It's an acknowledgment that trauma has a real and different affect on people and we should treat individual needs.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
sngz 6y ago
I'll have to disagree with that. I cut out a bunch of toxic people from my life and moved across the country and I still hate them but people like them don't come across my mind at all unless mutual acquaintances bring them up. I even came across my bully from middle school in a random city I visited, and had drinks with him and his girlfriend that he was calling a retard throughout the whole night and was clear that he was being abusive to her. Do I forgive him? no, especially since he never apologized. But I'm free from these people now too and I get Schadenfreude whenever i hear about their misfortunes in life and see it as karma. what you are describing is not forgiveness. It's called moving on.
- joelmichael 6y ago
  Haha, yeah, that doesn't sound bitter and hateful at all.
  - sngz 6y ago
    not denying that part. And i have no problem with it since it doesn't control or take up my life. I'm happier now that I cut those people out and watched some of them get what they deserve. Go tell someone who is happy that the person who murdered their sibling got what they deserved that they are bitter and hateful.
  - 08-15 6y ago
    This sounds like "You're just bitter and hateful!", but with sarcasm mixed in. That you can put a label on an emotion doesn't make it go away, nor does it make the emotion unreasonable. It does make you look like an asshole without any empathy, though.
- basch 6y ago
  > Do I forgive him? no, especially since he never apologized. what you are describing is not forgiveness. It's called moving on. Forgiveness is moving on. It is letting go of your negative emotions. Needing someone else to apologize to "give forgiveness" is not how forgiveness needs to work.
isoskeles 6y ago
It's a valid feeling to believe your parents either did know better or should have known better. And that also does not preclude forgiveness.

scottious 6y ago

Recently mother showed up unannounced at my house in tears and SCREAMED at my wife and I for HOURS and wouldn't leave. It was an absolute ambush. The reason? She wanted to get together earlier in the day but we had an appointment so we had to postpone it to later in the day. yes, that's all it takes. Our son was TEN DAYS OLD at the time. That was 18 months ago. Since then she's been the nastiest, most unpleasant person to be around and my father is condescending as hell and still tries to boss me around at 35 years old. This doesn't really feel like a "the past is the past, people have flaws". This more feels like an assault on my day-to-day life. It has been like this since I was a kid and I see not even the slightest bit of progress or self-reflection. When do I just call it quits?

rowanG077 6y ago
Cut them out. You are forcing yourself into victimhood by including them in your life.
Kwantuum 6y ago
> When do I just call it quits? Ten years ago. The second best time is right now. You do not have to take abuse from them because they are family. "the past is the past, people have flaws" is only valid for things that are actually in the past. Sounds like your parents' abuse would be much easier to deal with if it was a part of the past.
elsigh 6y ago
Why not move and call it quits? That might actually enable you to forgive them (from afar). Calling it quits was the first step in my forgiveness towards my parents. You could send them occasional updates but you shouldn't feel like you're obligated to otherwise engage (at least for a period of like 6 months - and then reevaluate).
OneGuy123 6y ago
Get yourself a restraining order. And no, this is not an exageration. Threaten her that she will never she her grandchildren again. It's not your responsibility to try and help your mother. The need/willingness for change has to come from her. If she won't even consider that it might be her fault and not yours she is a loss cause. Until she realize this she is a lost cause and you are doing yourself a disfavor by guilt-tripping over her letting her upset your life.
- mucholove 6y ago
  Don’t threaten them if you don’t mean do it. Really. A baseless threat will put your mother in the role of the victim—and the power of the victim role will let her throw more abuse on you. She will feel entitled to say nasty things. Getting the restraining order or some similar action that cuts her off is what will free you from the role of the victim. From this place you can take pity on her. You have taken action to eliminate the oppressor. Maybe more will be needed. If you are ever so frustrated as to feel helpless about doing that “more which might be needed” then you are back at victim. Good luck! PPS — look up the drama triangle and the corresponding empowerment triangle. Might be useful ;)
jhardy54 6y ago
> When do I just call it quits? If your partner's mom was treating them this way, or if your son was being treated this way, when would you want them to call it quits? I know you well enough to feel good about making a suggestion, but I can share my data point: I called it quits with one of my parents after putting up some boundaries (~"I love you but it doesn't feel good when you call and text me every few hours or unexpected show up at my work") and they responded very negatively. My metric: if anyone (from a total stranger to a romantic partner) ever talked to me that way, I'd cut contact immediately. We have no obligation to be outlets for abusive behavior. I'm probably going to talk to a therapist about it because I want to make sure I'm covering all my bases, but most of the time it feels like a net positive to have called it quits. I hope you can find some peace and balance, with or without the relationship with your mom. I'll be thinking of you, and I'm happy to chat if you're ever looking for perspective from the other side of the fence. Also: https://old.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists https://old.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists
devonkim 6y ago
Unfortunately, narcissists will never learn and any and all problems are because others are the problem unless a truly catastrophic event forced a major reality check on them given what I’ve read so far. Even on a relative scale of attempting to self-reflect they’ll believe they’re “compromising” when it’s not really helpful. It may be helpful to view narcissists as having a mental disability rather than it being simply a part of their personality. And when people are destructive to others’ lives few cultures would say we should accommodate the minority to a fault.
heimatau 6y ago
Sounds like she is constantly violating your boundaries. Based on the abusive behavior of the past, it seems like you're also enabling the bad behavior. When dealing with adults, put clear boundaries in place (don't come to my house unannounced, don't scream at my wife, nor come in my home to scream, etc) and if she violates your boundaries, then give her a timeout (she's not allowed to see me/my family/my child for a week). If it's egregious, you'll need to cut her out permanently. I had to with my mother. (P.S. I've also forgiven her [I hold no grudge towards her and her shitty/abusive decisions throughout my childhood] but...she's still not in my life)
igneo676 6y ago
Establish firm boundaries and, if they're transgressed, cut off your parents. Period. Zero contact, even if they show up on your front door screaming. For me, it was the most difficult thing I'd ever done. The benefits for you and your family though are worth fighting for and it's the only way you might have some semblance of a relationship with your parents in the future. You don't deserve that treatment. The book Boundaries: When to Say Yes, How to Say No to Take Control of Your Life by Henry Cloud and John Townsend is what helped me work through this. It's definitely written for people who are Christians, but I've heard secular people recommend it heavily. Finally, seek a therapist. If you're like me, you've been broken in ways you can't even identify and a professional will help you work through that. Good luck

TheOtherHobbes 6y ago

But you're not free until you deal with the PTSD, and a trite "I forgive you" is absolutely no help with this. Nor is pretending to everyone - including yourself - that you're just fine with the past when you really aren't. Worse, it implies a social pressure to "just deal with it" which is completely inappropriate and can be actively harmful. Good therapists and good therapy can help a lot. The modality doesn't matter as long as it's clearly being helpful. But cliches about forgiveness are utterly unhelpful to most people who were exposed to real emotional and psychological harm - whether it was a random drive-by crime, a work situation, a toxic relationship, or dysfunctional family dynamics.

voisin 6y ago
> Nor is pretending to everyone - including yourself - that you're just fine with the past when you really aren't. I don’t think forgiveness is about pretending you are fine with something you are not fine with. It isn’t about covering something up or lying. It is about taking back control of your feelings about the situation so that you can move toward a place of healing. Most people have suffered some form of trauma in their lives, and some choose to dwell on it while looking for the person or situation that brought that trauma to apologize or try to make the situation right. This is giving control of your feelings over to some third party. Forgiveness is saying “I am releasing my own need for you to be part of my healing journey.”
- ksdale 6y ago
  This is well said. I think some people view this as liberating themselves, and some people view this as letting the offender get away with it. For me personally, it feels oppressive to require anything from the person who wronged me. The fact that they wronged me indicates that perhaps they don't value my happiness as much as they should, and now my happiness is predicated on them acting the right way? This isn't to say I wouldn't try to, say, get my money back if I got scammed, but making my happiness contingent on the contrition of the scammer seems to give them emotional control in addition to my money, which is even worse.
  - 6y ago

serverholic 6y ago

But aren't you just redefining terms? I'm wary whenever someone says "I really mean X when I say Y." Why not just say Y in the first place?

johnchristopher 6y ago

A mantra that I like: “It's not your fault, but it's your responsibility to try to fix things.”

MegaButts 6y ago

Why do you assume his/her parents didn't know any better? Some people really are selfish and malicious. You're going out of your way to assume the best when you don't actually have any reason to believe that's true.

proto-n 6y ago
There's a general sentiment that all dogs are innocent at heart. If the dog has bad or mean behavior, that's the consequence of its bad experiences, like being outcast as a stray, bad owners, having been hurt before, etc. You can apply the same line of thinking to humans. Everyone is a victim of their circumatances and experiences. And while I understand that "everyone is innocent at heart" might be true to only some degree both with humans and dogs (nature vs nurture, etc), you can't really tell by the end result.
- serverholic 6y ago
  Even if they are born that way you can still look upon them with pity. They didn't choose their parents and they didn't choose how the wiring of their brain.

HumblyTossed 6y ago

> ... so from now on it's up to me It's... not that easy. We're all wired a little differently and trauma twists that wiring even more. Some people are less resilient than others and need more help moving on. This is not a condemnation of those people. It's an acknowledgment that trauma has a real and different affect on people and we should treat individual needs.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

sngz 6y ago

I'll have to disagree with that. I cut out a bunch of toxic people from my life and moved across the country and I still hate them but people like them don't come across my mind at all unless mutual acquaintances bring them up. I even came across my bully from middle school in a random city I visited, and had drinks with him and his girlfriend that he was calling a retard throughout the whole night and was clear that he was being abusive to her. Do I forgive him? no, especially since he never apologized. But I'm free from these people now too and I get Schadenfreude whenever i hear about their misfortunes in life and see it as karma. what you are describing is not forgiveness. It's called moving on.

joelmichael 6y ago
Haha, yeah, that doesn't sound bitter and hateful at all.
- sngz 6y ago
  not denying that part. And i have no problem with it since it doesn't control or take up my life. I'm happier now that I cut those people out and watched some of them get what they deserve. Go tell someone who is happy that the person who murdered their sibling got what they deserved that they are bitter and hateful.
- 08-15 6y ago
  This sounds like "You're just bitter and hateful!", but with sarcasm mixed in. That you can put a label on an emotion doesn't make it go away, nor does it make the emotion unreasonable. It does make you look like an asshole without any empathy, though.
basch 6y ago
> Do I forgive him? no, especially since he never apologized. what you are describing is not forgiveness. It's called moving on. Forgiveness is moving on. It is letting go of your negative emotions. Needing someone else to apologize to "give forgiveness" is not how forgiveness needs to work.

isoskeles 6y ago

It's a valid feeling to believe your parents either did know better or should have known better. And that also does not preclude forgiveness.