4 ms·

Biodiesel is not economical and a dumb idea, but it's pretty cheap to make flying offset factory emissions like within the EU emissions trading scheme (works ou

Biodiesel is not economical and a dumb idea, but it's pretty cheap to make flying offset factory emissions like within the EU emissions trading scheme (works out to ~€3 per passenger-hour), or even direct air capture schemes (~$20 per passenger-hour). Zero marginal carbon flights still works out to be cheaper than most countries' high speed rail networks if you compare unsubsidised costs.

titzer 6y ago
Four things I would like to mention that don't come up generally in discussions like these: * Transportation infrastructure is a societal investment that produces benefits, it's not just about its cost. Investing in terrestrial transportation like trains, even if it is more expensive can give rise to proportionally greater societal benefits than air travel--think, a long-haul train has multiple stops, providing connection points for economic activity (smaller towns and cities connected through train stations) that planes clearly cannot. I actually think it's totally OK that trains require more investment because they may create larger network effects in the big picture. * In some sense, all societal spending is make-work. If we're going to have make-work programs, we might as well spend it on the best long-term strategy, which in my honest opinion, having lived in Europe for a number of years, is cities being well-connected with cheap and fast rail, subways, and trams. * Climate change is a real thing, and it's due mostly to CO2 emissions. It's gonna cost money to fix. We need to stop deploying the "but itz mah dollarzzzes" as an excuse not to act. We need to start thinking about paying back the absolutely massive debt we racked up from cheap and easy energy. * Carbon offsets are a shell game that we can play in the short run, but ultimate we need to get to zero carbon footprint, which cannot be accomplished with offsets alone. In summary, we better start paying up.
- deepnotderp 6y ago
  High speed rail requires speeding up and slowing down too. And at 15m/mile it's significantly cheaper and better to build airports
  - mac01021 6y ago
    What does "15m/mile" mean?
    - smiley1437 6y ago
      I suspect that means 15 million dollars per mile of rail. It should depend on where the rail is being installed though, because for paved asphalt roads, the price per mile can vary from 500k per mile per lane in a rural area, to north of 10m per mile per lane if you’re in a densely populated urban area
  - randoramax 6y ago
    To go from LA to SF, flu. To go from Fresno to SF... Airport, really????
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
wutangson1 6y ago
Citation needed "biodiesel is a dumb idea".
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  At scale it comes from crops on farmland that was previously the Amazon (palm oil), or causes competition with food consumers (soybeans). Ethanol is just as bad, it’s a handout to the ag lobby. Works fine if it’s recycled vegetable oil, but that doesn’t scale. I love a truck that emits a French fry smell.
  - wutangson1 6y ago
    So, if fine from waste/recycled vegetable oil, the idea is not per de dumb. The industrial part could be tweaked sure. Corn & soybeans are global commodities, so to suggest it competes with food is not an accurate reflection of how food is priced. Also, I have yet to smell french fry exhaust from fatty acid methyl esters.
    - toomuchtodo 6y ago
      I don't believe I said it was a dumb idea, but that it wouldn't scale. Repurposing recycled or waste oils for vehicle combustion is a fine idea if you're properly managing the particulates emissions. > Corn & soybeans are global commodities, so to suggest it competes with food is not an accurate reflection of how food is priced. Food goes to whomever will pay the most for it, same as fuel. If there is greater demand for it as a fuel than those at the bottom affordability rungs for crops, there are no regulatory mechanisms to ensure those who need food get it instead of those who would burn it in vehicles.

titzer 6y ago

Four things I would like to mention that don't come up generally in discussions like these: * Transportation infrastructure is a societal investment that produces benefits, it's not just about its cost. Investing in terrestrial transportation like trains, even if it is more expensive can give rise to proportionally greater societal benefits than air travel--think, a long-haul train has multiple stops, providing connection points for economic activity (smaller towns and cities connected through train stations) that planes clearly cannot. I actually think it's totally OK that trains require more investment because they may create larger network effects in the big picture. * In some sense, all societal spending is make-work. If we're going to have make-work programs, we might as well spend it on the best long-term strategy, which in my honest opinion, having lived in Europe for a number of years, is cities being well-connected with cheap and fast rail, subways, and trams. * Climate change is a real thing, and it's due mostly to CO2 emissions. It's gonna cost money to fix. We need to stop deploying the "but itz mah dollarzzzes" as an excuse not to act. We need to start thinking about paying back the absolutely massive debt we racked up from cheap and easy energy. * Carbon offsets are a shell game that we can play in the short run, but ultimate we need to get to zero carbon footprint, which cannot be accomplished with offsets alone. In summary, we better start paying up.

deepnotderp 6y ago
High speed rail requires speeding up and slowing down too. And at 15m/mile it's significantly cheaper and better to build airports
- mac01021 6y ago
  What does "15m/mile" mean?
  - smiley1437 6y ago
    I suspect that means 15 million dollars per mile of rail. It should depend on where the rail is being installed though, because for paved asphalt roads, the price per mile can vary from 500k per mile per lane in a rural area, to north of 10m per mile per lane if you’re in a densely populated urban area
- randoramax 6y ago
  To go from LA to SF, flu. To go from Fresno to SF... Airport, really????
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

wutangson1 6y ago

Citation needed "biodiesel is a dumb idea".

toomuchtodo 6y ago
At scale it comes from crops on farmland that was previously the Amazon (palm oil), or causes competition with food consumers (soybeans). Ethanol is just as bad, it’s a handout to the ag lobby. Works fine if it’s recycled vegetable oil, but that doesn’t scale. I love a truck that emits a French fry smell.
- wutangson1 6y ago
  So, if fine from waste/recycled vegetable oil, the idea is not per de dumb. The industrial part could be tweaked sure. Corn & soybeans are global commodities, so to suggest it competes with food is not an accurate reflection of how food is priced. Also, I have yet to smell french fry exhaust from fatty acid methyl esters.
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    I don't believe I said it was a dumb idea, but that it wouldn't scale. Repurposing recycled or waste oils for vehicle combustion is a fine idea if you're properly managing the particulates emissions. > Corn & soybeans are global commodities, so to suggest it competes with food is not an accurate reflection of how food is priced. Food goes to whomever will pay the most for it, same as fuel. If there is greater demand for it as a fuel than those at the bottom affordability rungs for crops, there are no regulatory mechanisms to ensure those who need food get it instead of those who would burn it in vehicles.