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Microsoft just wanted to be paid its OS and apps, not so different from anyone else selling a product. Sure, they wanted dominance but who doesn't? Google cer

Microsoft just wanted to be paid its OS and apps, not so different from anyone else selling a product. Sure, they wanted dominance but who doesn't? Google certainly can't credibly claim that. Google is inserting itself into every aspect of communication and information retrieval on the Internet to build a profile of people so that it can better cram targeted ads into their faces. Both the privacy aspect and the advertising aspect are troubling.

bigmanwalter 6y ago
The end result of Microsoft wanting to dominate OS is equivalent to Google wanting to dominate communication; through monopoly of a resource they are able to charge a tax to all users of consumer technology.
- ThrowawayR2 6y ago
  > "The end result of Microsoft wanting to dominate OS is equivalent to Google wanting to dominate communication; through monopoly of a resource they are able to charge a tax to all users of consumer technology." I agree with you and the other Google employee who brought up EEE; Neither Google nor Microsoft is better than the other in that regard. What I am saying is that Google's broad collection of personal data (over which the public has minimal visibility or control) and their focus on advertising (not really a societal good by any measure) adds on top of their desire for monopoly to clearly make Google the bigger problem.
jefftk 6y ago
Microsoft went well beyond just trying to get paid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis... I work on ads at Google and "inserting itself into every aspect of communication and information retrieval on the Internet to build a profile of people so that it can better cram targeted ads into their faces" is not a good model. For example, Gmail data is not used for targeting ads: https://blog.google/products/gmail/g-suite-gains-traction-in-the-enterprise-g-suites-gmail-and-consumer-gmail-to-more-closely-align/ https://blog.google/products/gmail/g-suite-gains-traction-in... (speaking only for myself)
- deleuze 6y ago
  You work on _ads_ at Google, and are concerned about the ethics of working at Microsoft in the 90s? Sure, anti-competitive business practices might be unethical, but how can you possibly in good conscience suggest that bundling IE is more ethically problematic than building massive surveillance applications to sell ads? Just the implications of the data collection alone should be enough for you to quit your job before even considering any business angle. Hope you enjoy the stock grants!
  - jefftk 6y ago
    > Hope you enjoy the stock grants! If I thought my work at Google was making the world worse I wouldn't do it; see this discussion a few months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21617291 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21617291 For example, I'm currently exploring whether https://github.com/WICG/webpackage/blob/master/explainers/subresource-loading.md https://github.com/WICG/webpackage/blob/master/explainers/su... can increase the security and privacy of ad loading and rendering. > bundling IE is more ethically problematic than... I don't think bundling IE was at all the worst that Microsoft was doing in the 90s. Their efforts to kill the web, Java, and Linux, all threats to their strategy of a Windows monopoly, were much more of a problem. > building massive surveillance applications to sell ads Ads fund an enormous number of sites, and without them the web and information in general would be even more centralized. If you oppose ad personalization and targeting, trying to convince individual adtech employees to quit is a terrible strategy. Instead you should advocate for legislation such as the GDPR and CCPA that set out what sorts of behavior are acceptable.

bigmanwalter 6y ago

The end result of Microsoft wanting to dominate OS is equivalent to Google wanting to dominate communication; through monopoly of a resource they are able to charge a tax to all users of consumer technology.

ThrowawayR2 6y ago
> "The end result of Microsoft wanting to dominate OS is equivalent to Google wanting to dominate communication; through monopoly of a resource they are able to charge a tax to all users of consumer technology." I agree with you and the other Google employee who brought up EEE; Neither Google nor Microsoft is better than the other in that regard. What I am saying is that Google's broad collection of personal data (over which the public has minimal visibility or control) and their focus on advertising (not really a societal good by any measure) adds on top of their desire for monopoly to clearly make Google the bigger problem.

jefftk 6y ago

Microsoft went well beyond just trying to get paid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis... I work on ads at Google and "inserting itself into every aspect of communication and information retrieval on the Internet to build a profile of people so that it can better cram targeted ads into their faces" is not a good model. For example, Gmail data is not used for targeting ads: https://blog.google/products/gmail/g-suite-gains-traction-in-the-enterprise-g-suites-gmail-and-consumer-gmail-to-more-closely-align/ https://blog.google/products/gmail/g-suite-gains-traction-in... (speaking only for myself)

deleuze 6y ago
You work on _ads_ at Google, and are concerned about the ethics of working at Microsoft in the 90s? Sure, anti-competitive business practices might be unethical, but how can you possibly in good conscience suggest that bundling IE is more ethically problematic than building massive surveillance applications to sell ads? Just the implications of the data collection alone should be enough for you to quit your job before even considering any business angle. Hope you enjoy the stock grants!
- jefftk 6y ago
  > Hope you enjoy the stock grants! If I thought my work at Google was making the world worse I wouldn't do it; see this discussion a few months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21617291 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21617291 For example, I'm currently exploring whether https://github.com/WICG/webpackage/blob/master/explainers/subresource-loading.md https://github.com/WICG/webpackage/blob/master/explainers/su... can increase the security and privacy of ad loading and rendering. > bundling IE is more ethically problematic than... I don't think bundling IE was at all the worst that Microsoft was doing in the 90s. Their efforts to kill the web, Java, and Linux, all threats to their strategy of a Windows monopoly, were much more of a problem. > building massive surveillance applications to sell ads Ads fund an enormous number of sites, and without them the web and information in general would be even more centralized. If you oppose ad personalization and targeting, trying to convince individual adtech employees to quit is a terrible strategy. Instead you should advocate for legislation such as the GDPR and CCPA that set out what sorts of behavior are acceptable.