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Have you seen literally any other software segment? This isn't just the app store, this is also the play store, webpages, windows store apps, playstation games,

Have you seen literally any other software segment? This isn't just the app store, this is also the play store, webpages, windows store apps, playstation games, ... The most successful apps are the ones that make the most money: skinner box slot machines with a credit card system attached. Your idea that software should have things like "intrinsic quality" or "benefit to the user" is not as important as how much money it makes, and if you put more effort into mechanics or gameplay instead of additional monetization techniques, you're losing out.

toyg 6y ago
Don’t put words in my mouth. Every sector has winners and losers, that’s not the point. The point is that free platforms allow people to ALSO build different stuff and redefine what we use machines for; the appstore does not. On the desktop, one can invent p2p or a new type of browser or a magic app that makes unicorns out of tcp packets. On the appstore, entire areas of development are forbidden, in order to guarantee a constant stream of cash to Apple and Google. On the desktop, if you make a life-changing app, you get competition. On the appstore, if you threaten Apple/Google dominance, you get banned. Appstores make a mockery of the free market; anybody who lived through the 80s/90s “wild west” of computing should see them for the obscene freedom-destroying schemes that they are.
- simonh 6y ago
  The consumer market has had plenty of chances to buy into open platforms and choose phones with multiple stores and the ability to side load whatever they wanted. Those options have always been there from before the iPhone even. I was side loading apps on to my Palm Tungsten E. The fact is the App Store offers the best experience and the best apps. Side loading apps outside stores isn’t a viable business beyond very narrow niches, we’ve seen this happen. App stores offer a scale alternatives just can’t reach, which brings investment and therefore options in the consumer space that open platforms cannot match. We’ve been running the experiment for over a decade now and the results are in. App,Stores have crated staggeringly huge markets. That has enormous value for developers take that away, and how are customers and developers going to get connected? We’ve seen how that works out. The resulting markets aren’t 10 time smaller, or a 100 times smaller, they’re thousands of times smaller. I was going to say 30% is peanuts. It’s not, but I do think it’s a reasonable price.
  - toyg 6y ago
    > The consumer market has had plenty of chances to buy into open platforms No, post-iPhone it did not. Android is just an inferior experience in the fundamentals, and that's geared towards the Play Store too anyway. There is no decent alternative on the market that offers a truly open platform - none. And of course by now it's also a chicken-and-egg situation, because the mainstream has been thoroughly locked-in, so even if such a platform appeared, users and developers wouldn't give it a chance. I should be able to choose my appstore, my browser, my programs, on any platform. > The fact is the App Store offers the best experience and the best apps Then Apple and Google should not be afraid of allowing interoperability and replaceability of their appstore and their fundamental apps. You cannot objectively decide what is "best" when alternatives are banned or handicapped. As somebody who went through the browser wars, I find it really depressing to see the battles that were won then are now being thrown away so carelessly.
- freeone3000 6y ago
  There is precisely zero stopping you from distributing through F-Droid or Amazon Apps or another third-party app store, or even sideloading... Except there's no customers. There's no market. The user's took their freedom of choice, and chose app stores, because freedom is scary and the wild west doesn't get stuff done.
  - toyg 6y ago
    On iOS, which is by far the most lucrative market since Apple captured the high end with a superior experience in the fundamentals (the phones are better, the OS is smoother, etc etc), there is no third-party appstore. None. Will people trade UX for freedom? Absolutely, in the same way they eat at McDonalds because it's better value for money. It doesn't mean McDonalds is the be-all of food, or that we should accept all other restaurants will die and allow McDonalds to run a racket whereby nobody can serve a burger in the whole city. On Android, half the system is geared towards integration with the Play Store. It's like your fridge only had McDonalds-shaped holes and was preconfigured to order McDonalds for you in a flash. If you wanted to cook, you'd need to order a stove somewhere, sometimes you'd have to learn how to install gas pipes too. Are you ever going to learn to cook, in those circumstances? Fuck no, you're going to click a button and order McD. There is no market because the platform owners actively ensure that would be the case. They looked at the 90s and thought "Microsoft didn't make enough money, they were too liberal". That's just shameful greed.
    - lotsofpulp 6y ago
      > captured the high end with a superior experience in the fundamentals (the phones are better, the OS is smoother, etc etc), And many it is a superior experience because of the restriction to one App Store. Everywhere else seems to have tons of malware.

toyg 6y ago

Don’t put words in my mouth. Every sector has winners and losers, that’s not the point. The point is that free platforms allow people to ALSO build different stuff and redefine what we use machines for; the appstore does not. On the desktop, one can invent p2p or a new type of browser or a magic app that makes unicorns out of tcp packets. On the appstore, entire areas of development are forbidden, in order to guarantee a constant stream of cash to Apple and Google. On the desktop, if you make a life-changing app, you get competition. On the appstore, if you threaten Apple/Google dominance, you get banned. Appstores make a mockery of the free market; anybody who lived through the 80s/90s “wild west” of computing should see them for the obscene freedom-destroying schemes that they are.

simonh 6y ago
The consumer market has had plenty of chances to buy into open platforms and choose phones with multiple stores and the ability to side load whatever they wanted. Those options have always been there from before the iPhone even. I was side loading apps on to my Palm Tungsten E. The fact is the App Store offers the best experience and the best apps. Side loading apps outside stores isn’t a viable business beyond very narrow niches, we’ve seen this happen. App stores offer a scale alternatives just can’t reach, which brings investment and therefore options in the consumer space that open platforms cannot match. We’ve been running the experiment for over a decade now and the results are in. App,Stores have crated staggeringly huge markets. That has enormous value for developers take that away, and how are customers and developers going to get connected? We’ve seen how that works out. The resulting markets aren’t 10 time smaller, or a 100 times smaller, they’re thousands of times smaller. I was going to say 30% is peanuts. It’s not, but I do think it’s a reasonable price.
- toyg 6y ago
  > The consumer market has had plenty of chances to buy into open platforms No, post-iPhone it did not. Android is just an inferior experience in the fundamentals, and that's geared towards the Play Store too anyway. There is no decent alternative on the market that offers a truly open platform - none. And of course by now it's also a chicken-and-egg situation, because the mainstream has been thoroughly locked-in, so even if such a platform appeared, users and developers wouldn't give it a chance. I should be able to choose my appstore, my browser, my programs, on any platform. > The fact is the App Store offers the best experience and the best apps Then Apple and Google should not be afraid of allowing interoperability and replaceability of their appstore and their fundamental apps. You cannot objectively decide what is "best" when alternatives are banned or handicapped. As somebody who went through the browser wars, I find it really depressing to see the battles that were won then are now being thrown away so carelessly.
freeone3000 6y ago
There is precisely zero stopping you from distributing through F-Droid or Amazon Apps or another third-party app store, or even sideloading... Except there's no customers. There's no market. The user's took their freedom of choice, and chose app stores, because freedom is scary and the wild west doesn't get stuff done.
- toyg 6y ago
  On iOS, which is by far the most lucrative market since Apple captured the high end with a superior experience in the fundamentals (the phones are better, the OS is smoother, etc etc), there is no third-party appstore. None. Will people trade UX for freedom? Absolutely, in the same way they eat at McDonalds because it's better value for money. It doesn't mean McDonalds is the be-all of food, or that we should accept all other restaurants will die and allow McDonalds to run a racket whereby nobody can serve a burger in the whole city. On Android, half the system is geared towards integration with the Play Store. It's like your fridge only had McDonalds-shaped holes and was preconfigured to order McDonalds for you in a flash. If you wanted to cook, you'd need to order a stove somewhere, sometimes you'd have to learn how to install gas pipes too. Are you ever going to learn to cook, in those circumstances? Fuck no, you're going to click a button and order McD. There is no market because the platform owners actively ensure that would be the case. They looked at the 90s and thought "Microsoft didn't make enough money, they were too liberal". That's just shameful greed.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    > captured the high end with a superior experience in the fundamentals (the phones are better, the OS is smoother, etc etc), And many it is a superior experience because of the restriction to one App Store. Everywhere else seems to have tons of malware.