4 ms·

I think you're misunderstanding the author here. He doesn't argue that people shouldn't use Haskell because it's used in crypto currencies, quite the opposite h

I think you're misunderstanding the author here. He doesn't argue that people shouldn't use Haskell because it's used in crypto currencies, quite the opposite he seems to love Haskell and want people to use it. His worry is that being associated with crooks will make the Haskell community less attractive.

nine_k 6y ago
My point is exactly that: a technology itself can't be tainted by crooks using it. Have innumerable script kiddies, scammers, doorway site creators, etc, used PHP for doing bad things? Did / do they constitute a significant part of the user community? Yes. Has PHP been used to create wonderful and world-changing things, like Wikipedia? Does PHP have great, very nicely designed tools that help people develop good things faster, like Laravel? Has the PHP community done a tremendous work to make the language much better, and its stdlib much nicer? Yes. Crooks using your favorite tool can be a nuisance in the community, but noble-intentioned people can be jerks, too, which has many times been observed. If the community has a problem with its being nice, welcoming, constructive place, it's usually not because of people's business and even political affiliation. I'll hazard to link to [1] as a supplementary reading on the topic. [1]: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/GLMFmFvXGyAcG25ni/i-can-tolerate-anything-except-the-outgroup https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/GLMFmFvXGyAcG25ni/i-can-tole... (It's a copy; unfortunately the author has taken his whole huge blog offline.)
- rkangel 6y ago
  Quality of a language's community does affect the experience of using it. PHP is great example to use though - just because people are doing nefarious things doesn't make them unpleasant people. The difference between this and the PHP case is one of economics. Economic input gives you influence (usually). If people who's approach to life you don't agree with assume influence over the direction of a project, that can be a source of worry. I'm not sure I think it would be in this case, I think a source of finance is probably going to outweigh it, but I see the logic.
- syrrim 6y ago
  >the author has taken his whole huge blog offline Look again
- a-nikolaev 6y ago
  Scott Alexander himself is a borderline crook, together with people like Peter Thiel, tainting people's perception of Silicon Valley and computer tech as a whole. So crooks do harm technology.
- ansible 6y ago
  It is back online, mostly: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anything-except-the-outgroup/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anythin...
- mcguire 6y ago
  "Have innumerable script kiddies, scammers, doorway site creators, etc, used PHP for doing bad things? Did / do they constitute a significant part of the user community? Yes." Does PHP have a significant taint to the rest of the development community? Yes. Are its "nicely designed tools" recognized and used outside the PHP community? Not that I've seen. Wikipedia is a web site I use and sometimes poke at. Am I going to go looking at its code? Nope. In fact, there are several tools that I decided not to fix bugs in, but also not to use myself, when I realized they were PHP. (Aside: have they ever removed, or even deprecated, any of the layers of hideously broken interfaces in the stdlib? Or are they still lying there as a trap for the unwary?)
- mcguire 6y ago
  "[1]: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/GLMFmFvXGyAcG25ni/i-can-tole.. https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/GLMFmFvXGyAcG25ni/i-can-tole.... (It's a copy; unfortunately the author has taken his whole huge blog offline.)" Dang it, how come I didn't see this before PG's essay on conformists and individualists?
- goto11 6y ago
  > My point is exactly that: a technology itself can't be tainted by crooks using it. Reportedly Lisp was hit pretty hard by its association with AI hype collapse ("The AI Winter"). Of course this doesn't change the merits of a language per se, but it can be a blow to the community and investments around it.
akimball 6y ago
Being associated with broad-brush slander is also a negative. The attack on cryptocurrency broadly was extremely unbalanced, and not even factually correct on some pivotal points. I concede that it a sector rife with opportunism, scammers, and obvious criminal fraud. The core premise that the creation of an economy and system of trade, the codification of contract law in code, is without fundamental value or productive effect is, however, risible, and tightly coupling cryptocurrency with right-wing nuttery is a smear.

nine_k 6y ago

My point is exactly that: a technology itself can't be tainted by crooks using it. Have innumerable script kiddies, scammers, doorway site creators, etc, used PHP for doing bad things? Did / do they constitute a significant part of the user community? Yes. Has PHP been used to create wonderful and world-changing things, like Wikipedia? Does PHP have great, very nicely designed tools that help people develop good things faster, like Laravel? Has the PHP community done a tremendous work to make the language much better, and its stdlib much nicer? Yes. Crooks using your favorite tool can be a nuisance in the community, but noble-intentioned people can be jerks, too, which has many times been observed. If the community has a problem with its being nice, welcoming, constructive place, it's usually not because of people's business and even political affiliation. I'll hazard to link to [1] as a supplementary reading on the topic. [1]: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/GLMFmFvXGyAcG25ni/i-can-tolerate-anything-except-the-outgroup https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/GLMFmFvXGyAcG25ni/i-can-tole... (It's a copy; unfortunately the author has taken his whole huge blog offline.)

rkangel 6y ago
Quality of a language's community does affect the experience of using it. PHP is great example to use though - just because people are doing nefarious things doesn't make them unpleasant people. The difference between this and the PHP case is one of economics. Economic input gives you influence (usually). If people who's approach to life you don't agree with assume influence over the direction of a project, that can be a source of worry. I'm not sure I think it would be in this case, I think a source of finance is probably going to outweigh it, but I see the logic.
syrrim 6y ago
>the author has taken his whole huge blog offline Look again
a-nikolaev 6y ago
Scott Alexander himself is a borderline crook, together with people like Peter Thiel, tainting people's perception of Silicon Valley and computer tech as a whole. So crooks do harm technology.
ansible 6y ago
It is back online, mostly: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anything-except-the-outgroup/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anythin...
mcguire 6y ago
"Have innumerable script kiddies, scammers, doorway site creators, etc, used PHP for doing bad things? Did / do they constitute a significant part of the user community? Yes." Does PHP have a significant taint to the rest of the development community? Yes. Are its "nicely designed tools" recognized and used outside the PHP community? Not that I've seen. Wikipedia is a web site I use and sometimes poke at. Am I going to go looking at its code? Nope. In fact, there are several tools that I decided not to fix bugs in, but also not to use myself, when I realized they were PHP. (Aside: have they ever removed, or even deprecated, any of the layers of hideously broken interfaces in the stdlib? Or are they still lying there as a trap for the unwary?)
mcguire 6y ago
"[1]: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/GLMFmFvXGyAcG25ni/i-can-tole.. https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/GLMFmFvXGyAcG25ni/i-can-tole.... (It's a copy; unfortunately the author has taken his whole huge blog offline.)" Dang it, how come I didn't see this before PG's essay on conformists and individualists?
goto11 6y ago
> My point is exactly that: a technology itself can't be tainted by crooks using it. Reportedly Lisp was hit pretty hard by its association with AI hype collapse ("The AI Winter"). Of course this doesn't change the merits of a language per se, but it can be a blow to the community and investments around it.

akimball 6y ago

Being associated with broad-brush slander is also a negative. The attack on cryptocurrency broadly was extremely unbalanced, and not even factually correct on some pivotal points. I concede that it a sector rife with opportunism, scammers, and obvious criminal fraud. The core premise that the creation of an economy and system of trade, the codification of contract law in code, is without fundamental value or productive effect is, however, risible, and tightly coupling cryptocurrency with right-wing nuttery is a smear.