4 ms·

IBM helped with Holocaust. It also invented PC.

by ajuc 6y ago

frank2 6y ago
If you're trying to say that IBM invented the home computer or the personal computer, you are off by about 6 years. (Home computers became available around 1975; home computers that didn't not need any assembly by the buyer became available in 1976 or 1977; the IBM PC became available in 1981.) If you're trying to say that IBM was the first to officially name a personal computer "PC", I'll give you that one.
- nine_k 6y ago
  It did create a personal computer which was (1) easy to clone and (2) easy to extend with ISA cards. This openness made it a huge success, leading to an explosion of PC-compatible machines. Most other makers, from Apple to Amiga, vigorously protected their small private markets where they dominated. The original Macintosh has explicitly removed all the expansion capabilities that e.g. Apple II had.
  - frank2 6y ago
    It accidentally made it easy to clone by rushing to market, making false assumptions and hoping the enterprise market would soon lose interest in personal computers. Rushing to market led to the decision to license the OS from Bill Gates instead of buying the OS or writing it in-house. An example of a false assumption would be believing that holding the copyright on the BIOS would be enough prevent clones.
  - kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
    S-100 was open.
    - nine_k 6y ago
      Yes, and extermely widely used, despite its bitter flaws.
nine_k 6y ago
Werner von Braun bombed London with V-2s during WWII and was a Nazi party member above the rank-and-file level. Werner von Braun has lead the US space program to launching humans to LEO, and then to the Moon. Again, technology is morally oblivious. A sword that only serves a noble aim is strictly the stuff of fairy tales, and is not implementable in the real world (no, not even with an AGI, since humans are a reasonably good approximation of an AGI).
- fwip 6y ago
  Technology is not inherently morally oblivious. Some technology has only one purpose, and is used only for immoral acts. An example of this would be any device invented for torture. While those examples are uncommon, more technology is built expressly for evil acts, even if it has the capacity for good. If you are distributing plans and technology to make "dirty bombs" - devices intended to disperse lethal amounts of radiation - it's impossible for a reasonable person to believe that it is not intended to murder people via radiation. Furthermore, in the context of today's world, you know that the most likely users of such a device would be terrorist organizations who will target innocent civilians. An even greater percentage of technology is developed to support people doing evil acts. If you provide software or hardware to people doing evil acts (in this case, the Holocaust), you are giving them material aid. The software written to tabulate Jewish residents in Germany was developed for the Nazi party. Technical support and sales continued well after Nazi Germany had invaded Poland. The fact that a man (or company) enriched himself by doing both bad and good things does not mean that his actions were morally neutral. Most people alive have done both bad and good things.
  - nine_k 6y ago
    The same firearm can be user to assault an innocent person and to protect an innocent person (in the hands of said person or law enforcement / army). There are certain devices, like napalm bombs, that have a narrow and specific purpose of destruction. But the technologies used to make the bomb shells or the napalm are not specific, and have all kinds of peaceful and constructive uses. Equally, there can be bad, evil-pursuing programs in a particular general purpose language, but this does not taint that language.
lsllc 6y ago
I would go as far as to say IBM was "complicit": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust#Summary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust#Summary
kabdib 6y ago
> It also invented PC. No. Personal computers were around for quite a while before IBM decided to enter the market (with a not very good and very expensive machine, I should add). The PC mantle probably goes to Processor Technology, or maybe someone a little earlier. I'm counting 8-bit chipsets, the date gets pushed back a LOT farther if you're talking PDP-8s or earlier systems (much less commonly available to the public). Or you could take it forward to 1977/78 and give the title to Apple. But it's definitely not IBM.

IBM helped with Holocaust. It also invented PC.

by ajuc 6y ago

IBM helped with Holocaust. It also invented PC.

If you're trying to say that IBM invented the home computer or the personal computer, you are off by about 6 years. (Home computers became available around 1975; home computers that didn't not need any assembly by the buyer became available in 1976 or 1977; the IBM PC became available in 1981.) If you're trying to say that IBM was the first to officially name a personal computer "PC", I'll give you that one.

nine_k 6y ago
It did create a personal computer which was (1) easy to clone and (2) easy to extend with ISA cards. This openness made it a huge success, leading to an explosion of PC-compatible machines. Most other makers, from Apple to Amiga, vigorously protected their small private markets where they dominated. The original Macintosh has explicitly removed all the expansion capabilities that e.g. Apple II had.
- frank2 6y ago
  It accidentally made it easy to clone by rushing to market, making false assumptions and hoping the enterprise market would soon lose interest in personal computers. Rushing to market led to the decision to license the OS from Bill Gates instead of buying the OS or writing it in-house. An example of a false assumption would be believing that holding the copyright on the BIOS would be enough prevent clones.
- kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
  S-100 was open.
  - nine_k 6y ago
    Yes, and extermely widely used, despite its bitter flaws.

nine_k 6y ago

Werner von Braun bombed London with V-2s during WWII and was a Nazi party member above the rank-and-file level. Werner von Braun has lead the US space program to launching humans to LEO, and then to the Moon. Again, technology is morally oblivious. A sword that only serves a noble aim is strictly the stuff of fairy tales, and is not implementable in the real world (no, not even with an AGI, since humans are a reasonably good approximation of an AGI).

fwip 6y ago
Technology is not inherently morally oblivious. Some technology has only one purpose, and is used only for immoral acts. An example of this would be any device invented for torture. While those examples are uncommon, more technology is built expressly for evil acts, even if it has the capacity for good. If you are distributing plans and technology to make "dirty bombs" - devices intended to disperse lethal amounts of radiation - it's impossible for a reasonable person to believe that it is not intended to murder people via radiation. Furthermore, in the context of today's world, you know that the most likely users of such a device would be terrorist organizations who will target innocent civilians. An even greater percentage of technology is developed to support people doing evil acts. If you provide software or hardware to people doing evil acts (in this case, the Holocaust), you are giving them material aid. The software written to tabulate Jewish residents in Germany was developed for the Nazi party. Technical support and sales continued well after Nazi Germany had invaded Poland. The fact that a man (or company) enriched himself by doing both bad and good things does not mean that his actions were morally neutral. Most people alive have done both bad and good things.
- nine_k 6y ago
  The same firearm can be user to assault an innocent person and to protect an innocent person (in the hands of said person or law enforcement / army). There are certain devices, like napalm bombs, that have a narrow and specific purpose of destruction. But the technologies used to make the bomb shells or the napalm are not specific, and have all kinds of peaceful and constructive uses. Equally, there can be bad, evil-pursuing programs in a particular general purpose language, but this does not taint that language.

lsllc 6y ago

I would go as far as to say IBM was "complicit": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust#Summary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust#Summary

kabdib 6y ago

> It also invented PC. No. Personal computers were around for quite a while before IBM decided to enter the market (with a not very good and very expensive machine, I should add). The PC mantle probably goes to Processor Technology, or maybe someone a little earlier. I'm counting 8-bit chipsets, the date gets pushed back a LOT farther if you're talking PDP-8s or earlier systems (much less commonly available to the public). Or you could take it forward to 1977/78 and give the title to Apple. But it's definitely not IBM.