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There are a ton of problems with hand gestures. One, they're hard to see and blocked by line of sight (voice isn't.) Two, they require hands to be free to com

There are a ton of problems with hand gestures. One, they're hard to see and blocked by line of sight (voice isn't.) Two, they require hands to be free to communicate (not always the case, and in situations of survival it's probably not doable at all.) Three, they're limited versus voice. Voice has soft and loud and more sounds can be made than variations of hands. More meaning can be ascribed to a sound.

war1025 6y ago
True, but deaf people are able to communicate quite effectively with sign language. So it's not like hands are completely worthless for communication. Plus, in certain cases the "hard to see" is an advantage.
- ntsplnkv2 6y ago
  Of course - never implied that this was the case, it is a useful tool, but it's easy to see why we primarily use our voices.
James_Henry 6y ago
The article talks about this and then goes on to point out some of the advantages of signing. The article convincingly argues there's more to this than just your list of problems with hand gestures and the article
kerkeslager 6y ago
> Three, they're limited versus voice. Voice has soft and loud and more sounds can be made than variations of hands. I agree with your first two points, but I have to disagree with you on this third point. Mute your computer and check out the way she provides emphasis in this[1], or the way Lydia Callis signs so expressively[2]. Large motions are like loud exclamations, smooth, slow motions are like a crooning voice, etc. People who sign have a "voice"--a style of signing. Signing without any sort of emphasis or expression is the sign equivalent of speaking in a monotone, and can actually make it harder to understand someone, because these elements communicate a lot of meaning, just as intonation and volume communicate meaning in speech. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P_4D26hApY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P_4D26hApY [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5w09Po5bLA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5w09Po5bLA
- ntsplnkv2 6y ago
  Of course - I never said there was no expression in sign language. But I don't think that expression has as many degrees of freedom as using voice. Plus as the article said - it's tiresome.
  - kerkeslager 6y ago
    shrug I suppose it's a bit silly to argue over a spectrum of expression, but I'd say that the Lose Yourself video shows someone communicating in sign with a level of expressiveness that verbal speakers rarely achieve. Now granted, that's comparing an above-average signer to average speakers, so it's not a fair comparison. Perhaps a better comparison would be between the signer and the original artist (Eminem). But if advanced signers can compete with advanced speakers for expressiveness, I think it's hard to argue that sign is less expressive.
adinisom 6y ago
The first is an issue: can only be looking at one thing at a time. The second doesn't seem to come up much in practice. Can eat and sign at the same time unlike voice. Third isn't true -- signing is more expressive because it takes advantage of space, facial expressions, and signs can be modulated to adjust the meaning. But it almost has to be since the symbol rate is lower than speech.
- ntsplnkv2 6y ago
  > The second doesn't seem to come up much in practice. Can eat and sign at the same time unlike voice. If you're being attacked or in a fight, do you really think you'll have a hand free to do sign language?

war1025 6y ago

True, but deaf people are able to communicate quite effectively with sign language. So it's not like hands are completely worthless for communication. Plus, in certain cases the "hard to see" is an advantage.

ntsplnkv2 6y ago
Of course - never implied that this was the case, it is a useful tool, but it's easy to see why we primarily use our voices.

James_Henry 6y ago

The article talks about this and then goes on to point out some of the advantages of signing. The article convincingly argues there's more to this than just your list of problems with hand gestures and the article

kerkeslager 6y ago

> Three, they're limited versus voice. Voice has soft and loud and more sounds can be made than variations of hands. I agree with your first two points, but I have to disagree with you on this third point. Mute your computer and check out the way she provides emphasis in this[1], or the way Lydia Callis signs so expressively[2]. Large motions are like loud exclamations, smooth, slow motions are like a crooning voice, etc. People who sign have a "voice"--a style of signing. Signing without any sort of emphasis or expression is the sign equivalent of speaking in a monotone, and can actually make it harder to understand someone, because these elements communicate a lot of meaning, just as intonation and volume communicate meaning in speech. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P_4D26hApY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P_4D26hApY [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5w09Po5bLA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5w09Po5bLA

ntsplnkv2 6y ago
Of course - I never said there was no expression in sign language. But I don't think that expression has as many degrees of freedom as using voice. Plus as the article said - it's tiresome.
- kerkeslager 6y ago
  shrug I suppose it's a bit silly to argue over a spectrum of expression, but I'd say that the Lose Yourself video shows someone communicating in sign with a level of expressiveness that verbal speakers rarely achieve. Now granted, that's comparing an above-average signer to average speakers, so it's not a fair comparison. Perhaps a better comparison would be between the signer and the original artist (Eminem). But if advanced signers can compete with advanced speakers for expressiveness, I think it's hard to argue that sign is less expressive.

adinisom 6y ago

The first is an issue: can only be looking at one thing at a time. The second doesn't seem to come up much in practice. Can eat and sign at the same time unlike voice. Third isn't true -- signing is more expressive because it takes advantage of space, facial expressions, and signs can be modulated to adjust the meaning. But it almost has to be since the symbol rate is lower than speech.

ntsplnkv2 6y ago
> The second doesn't seem to come up much in practice. Can eat and sign at the same time unlike voice. If you're being attacked or in a fight, do you really think you'll have a hand free to do sign language?