30 ms·

Very much a generic anti-cryptocurrency rant, and very little haskell-specific clarifications. I understand not wanting to name specific projects (Cardano comes

Very much a generic anti-cryptocurrency rant, and very little haskell-specific clarifications. I understand not wanting to name specific projects (Cardano comes to mind; "Cardano is a blockchain platform built on the groundbreaking Ouroboros proof-of-stake consensus protocol, and developed using the Haskell programming language: a functional programming language that enables Cardano to pursue evidence-based development, for unparalleled security and stability."), however it would be interesting to have some examples of haskell developments that are fueled specifically by cryptocurrency applications. FTA: "the economic machinery that shapes everything we do and informs the problems we chose to spend our cycles on"; what are these specific problems?

sanxiyn 6y ago
There is also DAML: https://github.com/digital-asset/daml https://github.com/digital-asset/daml
danpalmer 6y ago
> very little haskell-specific clarifications This is about Haskell-the-ecosystem, not Haskell-the-technology. In that way I think it's a valuable contribution. Stephen is a well known and respected part of the Haskell ecosystem, and has written many popular blog posts about the language and ecosystem.
- mark_l_watson 6y ago
  I agree. Cardano and Pact are fine projects. Pact (a not complete Turing language for blockchain) is also interesting Haskell code to read and to learn from.
the_af 6y ago
> very little haskell-specific clarifications The author mentions at least three Haskell-related companies, such as FP Complete, and says he wants to avoid naming specific people for the time being.
- bondarchuk 6y ago
  If the only charge is that haskell consulting companies are writing code for cryptocurrency projects, then I have misunderstood the article first time around. I assumed the problem was with developments in the haskell language itself.
  - the_af 6y ago
    Exactly this. The article is not about the Haskell language itself -- i.e. not a rant about technical issues -- but about its community and consulting companies getting (allegedly) entangled with crypto businesses. "Making a deal with the devil". That's why the author rants about crypto and not about Haskell itself.
    - sanxiyn 6y ago
      I am not sure what is "alleged" about Haskell consultancies getting cryptocurrency money. It is pretty easy to confirm. Both Well-Typed and FP Complete got money from Cardano and posted to their blog what amount to advertisements for Cardano. Google a bit if you care.
      - the_af 6y ago
        "Alleged" as in "the article claims this, but I personally haven't double-checked it so don't want to make my post sound as I myself were sure this was the case". "Alleged" doesn't mean "unfounded". I've written enough comments on HN to know that if I don't word it this way, someone will inevitably start arguing with me as if the assertion was mine.
      - mcguire 6y ago
        "...posted to their blog what amount to advertisements for Cardano." And that would seem to be exactly what Stephen is complaining about.
  - sanxiyn 6y ago
    It does affect Haskell language itself (GHC anyway). See moomin's comment.
drcode 6y ago
It doesn't work to talk about an "elephant in the room" and then not name names. The whole point of the idiom is that you're criticizing other people for not concretely naming things.
- arianvanp 6y ago
  He explicitly calls out the elephants in the last paragraph Namely Well-typed, FPComplete and Tweag.io who are all consultancy companies working on the Cardano project
moomin 6y ago
https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/merge_requests/2231 https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/merge_requests/2231 is an example.
- sanxiyn 6y ago
  Key word here is Asterius. Cardano is funding Asterius, Haskell to WebAssembly compiler, Asterius is based on GHC, and changes convenient for Asterius are being merged to GHC.
  - exdsq 6y ago
    This isn't really true - several members of the team have been contributing to GHC since before Cardano was a thing.
    - sanxiyn 6y ago
      There is no contradiction here. I didn't claim Cardano started Asterius. But it definitely is funding it.
      - angerman 6y ago
        tweag is funding Asterius.
seagreen 6y ago
> however it would be interesting to have some examples of haskell developments that are fueled specifically by cryptocurrency applications An article saying "this sector of our community is bad and scamming retail investors" is already burning MAD BRIDGES and putting an enormous target on your back. "Bob Smith and Joe Brown, specifically, are scamming retail investors" is going even a little beyond that. It's just not necessary. EDIT: For the writer of the article, that is. We in the peanut gallery obviously want all the details, which is why a little detective work is often required in these cases.
analyte123 6y ago
This is an article about a giant pot of questionably earned money buying influence in a software ecosystem that he's been a big part of. But this is hardly the first time for this, in other cases the pot of questionably earned money came from selling people's data for ads or from Windows licenses. The question in all of these cases is what specific bad influences the money can have on the software ecosystem and how community standards and governance can mitigate them. I don't really see a lot of answers in this article besides ill-defined ethical compromise of developers. I skimmed the book he mentioned (The Politics of Bitcoin: Software as Right-Wing Extremism) which sounds interesting but it doesn't really make its own case very well: half of the "extremist" citations are from anonymous online commenters and you can't go 2 paragraphs without straight up name-calling and ham-fisted guilt by association.
- sanxiyn 6y ago
  There is degree of questionableness and I think it makes sense to say that some money is more questionably earned than others.
- sukilot 6y ago
  It's not buying influence, it's "blood money" -- profiting from crime by selling things to criminals. When Prada sells luxury clothes to drug lords, the problem isn't that the drug lords influence Prada
st1ck 6y ago
While Cardano is the biggest of the elephants, there are others, like e.g. Dolla, slightly related to Well-Typed through e.g. https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-feuer-04111a73 https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-feuer-04111a73

sanxiyn 6y ago

There is also DAML: https://github.com/digital-asset/daml https://github.com/digital-asset/daml

danpalmer 6y ago

> very little haskell-specific clarifications This is about Haskell-the-ecosystem, not Haskell-the-technology. In that way I think it's a valuable contribution. Stephen is a well known and respected part of the Haskell ecosystem, and has written many popular blog posts about the language and ecosystem.

mark_l_watson 6y ago
I agree. Cardano and Pact are fine projects. Pact (a not complete Turing language for blockchain) is also interesting Haskell code to read and to learn from.

the_af 6y ago

> very little haskell-specific clarifications The author mentions at least three Haskell-related companies, such as FP Complete, and says he wants to avoid naming specific people for the time being.

bondarchuk 6y ago
If the only charge is that haskell consulting companies are writing code for cryptocurrency projects, then I have misunderstood the article first time around. I assumed the problem was with developments in the haskell language itself.
- the_af 6y ago
  Exactly this. The article is not about the Haskell language itself -- i.e. not a rant about technical issues -- but about its community and consulting companies getting (allegedly) entangled with crypto businesses. "Making a deal with the devil". That's why the author rants about crypto and not about Haskell itself.
  - sanxiyn 6y ago
    I am not sure what is "alleged" about Haskell consultancies getting cryptocurrency money. It is pretty easy to confirm. Both Well-Typed and FP Complete got money from Cardano and posted to their blog what amount to advertisements for Cardano. Google a bit if you care.
    - the_af 6y ago
      "Alleged" as in "the article claims this, but I personally haven't double-checked it so don't want to make my post sound as I myself were sure this was the case". "Alleged" doesn't mean "unfounded". I've written enough comments on HN to know that if I don't word it this way, someone will inevitably start arguing with me as if the assertion was mine.
    - mcguire 6y ago
      "...posted to their blog what amount to advertisements for Cardano." And that would seem to be exactly what Stephen is complaining about.
- sanxiyn 6y ago
  It does affect Haskell language itself (GHC anyway). See moomin's comment.

drcode 6y ago

It doesn't work to talk about an "elephant in the room" and then not name names. The whole point of the idiom is that you're criticizing other people for not concretely naming things.

arianvanp 6y ago
He explicitly calls out the elephants in the last paragraph Namely Well-typed, FPComplete and Tweag.io who are all consultancy companies working on the Cardano project

moomin 6y ago

https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/merge_requests/2231 https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/merge_requests/2231 is an example.

sanxiyn 6y ago
Key word here is Asterius. Cardano is funding Asterius, Haskell to WebAssembly compiler, Asterius is based on GHC, and changes convenient for Asterius are being merged to GHC.
- exdsq 6y ago
  This isn't really true - several members of the team have been contributing to GHC since before Cardano was a thing.
  - sanxiyn 6y ago
    There is no contradiction here. I didn't claim Cardano started Asterius. But it definitely is funding it.
    - angerman 6y ago
      tweag is funding Asterius.

seagreen 6y ago

> however it would be interesting to have some examples of haskell developments that are fueled specifically by cryptocurrency applications An article saying "this sector of our community is bad and scamming retail investors" is already burning MAD BRIDGES and putting an enormous target on your back. "Bob Smith and Joe Brown, specifically, are scamming retail investors" is going even a little beyond that. It's just not necessary. EDIT: For the writer of the article, that is. We in the peanut gallery obviously want all the details, which is why a little detective work is often required in these cases.

analyte123 6y ago

This is an article about a giant pot of questionably earned money buying influence in a software ecosystem that he's been a big part of. But this is hardly the first time for this, in other cases the pot of questionably earned money came from selling people's data for ads or from Windows licenses. The question in all of these cases is what specific bad influences the money can have on the software ecosystem and how community standards and governance can mitigate them. I don't really see a lot of answers in this article besides ill-defined ethical compromise of developers. I skimmed the book he mentioned (The Politics of Bitcoin: Software as Right-Wing Extremism) which sounds interesting but it doesn't really make its own case very well: half of the "extremist" citations are from anonymous online commenters and you can't go 2 paragraphs without straight up name-calling and ham-fisted guilt by association.

sanxiyn 6y ago
There is degree of questionableness and I think it makes sense to say that some money is more questionably earned than others.
sukilot 6y ago
It's not buying influence, it's "blood money" -- profiting from crime by selling things to criminals. When Prada sells luxury clothes to drug lords, the problem isn't that the drug lords influence Prada

st1ck 6y ago

While Cardano is the biggest of the elephants, there are others, like e.g. Dolla, slightly related to Well-Typed through e.g. https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-feuer-04111a73 https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-feuer-04111a73