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I see this line of thinking a lot, but it's a bad one. It's understandable that people think like this in a place like SF where landlords have grabbed up a lot

I see this line of thinking a lot, but it's a bad one. It's understandable that people think like this in a place like SF where landlords have grabbed up a lot of salary increases, but it really doesn't work that way. If it was true, rents would keep climbing to 90+% of incomes but they don't. It would also imply that any other income income increases or redistribution (widespread pay rises, social security, etc etc) were pointless, you might as well give up on any kind of redistribution entirely. Of course, if there was a UBI, there would be increased demand for stuff that low income people need like housing and food. That's the whole point of increasing equality! Shifting consumption from sports cars and chandeliers to food and shelter is the goal. But then supply would shift to compensate. Another advantage of UBI is that even if you do wrongly assume it doesn't result in any net redistribution, it's still beneficial, because it smoothes income over the lifecycle, and a smoother income is much less stressful and unpleasant than a choppier income.

bmitc 6y ago
> I see this line of thinking a lot, but it's a bad one. You can't just state that and it be true. > It's understandable that people think like this in a place like SF where landlords have grabbed up a lot of salary increases, but it really doesn't work that way. Yet, it does work that way. In every city I have ever lived in, it's worked that way. For rent in particular, any excuse that more can be paid leads to higher rent prices. A company built a new office nearby? Rent goes up. More "affluent" people are moving into a particular area? Rent goes up. And so on. > If it was true, rents would keep climbing to 90+% of incomes but they don't. Why? That's not the implication. Rent increases are done in a cleverly predatory way. Often times, rent is increased in small to medium steps but frequently, and the notice of such rent increases is notified in the minimum (if that) time legally required. That often leaves renters stuck because there are other, big surprise, expensive barriers to moving. Rent is a predatory system that maximizes the amount of rent that can be collected. That doesn't mean it goes to 90% of incomes as you claim, which nobody else is claiming. My overall point is not about just rent. By providing UBI and not putting other protections and improvements in place, a capitalistic society will not just sit around and leave meat on the bones. Things will simply shift and people will still be in poverty. A poor educational system will still be there. Creditors will still be around. Etc.
- ubercow13 6y ago
  >A company built a new office nearby? Rent goes up. More "affluent" people are moving into a particular area? Rent goes up. And so on. Those things seem to be due to demand. A new office means that people can make more money living in that location, so are willing to pay more for accommodation there. More affluent people moving to a location means that they must see some value in living there. How does UBI increase the demand for housing in any one place (or at all)?
DSingularity 6y ago
They don’t go to 90% because people will opt to buy or move. Will the same happen when everyone makes x more? Only if house ownership costs remain flat. I don’t think that will happen - cost and demand.
- djrobstep 6y ago
  "Everyone" doesn't make x more, some people make less. There's no more money overall. Money is just shifted around. Demand will increase on housing (particularly in the low end), but so will supply.

bmitc 6y ago

> I see this line of thinking a lot, but it's a bad one. You can't just state that and it be true. > It's understandable that people think like this in a place like SF where landlords have grabbed up a lot of salary increases, but it really doesn't work that way. Yet, it does work that way. In every city I have ever lived in, it's worked that way. For rent in particular, any excuse that more can be paid leads to higher rent prices. A company built a new office nearby? Rent goes up. More "affluent" people are moving into a particular area? Rent goes up. And so on. > If it was true, rents would keep climbing to 90+% of incomes but they don't. Why? That's not the implication. Rent increases are done in a cleverly predatory way. Often times, rent is increased in small to medium steps but frequently, and the notice of such rent increases is notified in the minimum (if that) time legally required. That often leaves renters stuck because there are other, big surprise, expensive barriers to moving. Rent is a predatory system that maximizes the amount of rent that can be collected. That doesn't mean it goes to 90% of incomes as you claim, which nobody else is claiming. My overall point is not about just rent. By providing UBI and not putting other protections and improvements in place, a capitalistic society will not just sit around and leave meat on the bones. Things will simply shift and people will still be in poverty. A poor educational system will still be there. Creditors will still be around. Etc.

ubercow13 6y ago
>A company built a new office nearby? Rent goes up. More "affluent" people are moving into a particular area? Rent goes up. And so on. Those things seem to be due to demand. A new office means that people can make more money living in that location, so are willing to pay more for accommodation there. More affluent people moving to a location means that they must see some value in living there. How does UBI increase the demand for housing in any one place (or at all)?

DSingularity 6y ago

They don’t go to 90% because people will opt to buy or move. Will the same happen when everyone makes x more? Only if house ownership costs remain flat. I don’t think that will happen - cost and demand.

djrobstep 6y ago
"Everyone" doesn't make x more, some people make less. There's no more money overall. Money is just shifted around. Demand will increase on housing (particularly in the low end), but so will supply.