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How does UBI differentiate itself from socialism, a welfare state and/or communism? Where is the money for UBI going to come from? What incentive would there

How does UBI differentiate itself from socialism, a welfare state and/or communism? Where is the money for UBI going to come from? What incentive would there be for people to work?

deepinthewoods 6y ago
Tax rates on the rich are at historically low levels. Rich people would still get UBI but the top level tax rate would effectively cancel it out (and more). Current welfare wastes a lot of money on admin/staff/fraud investigations and none of that would be needed with UBI since everyone gets it. People would still want money. UBI isn't going to be enough for a lavish lifestyle, people will still want to work. It would make lower-paying activities like art/open source more viable though.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- 0DHm2CxO7Lb3 6y ago
  > Tax rates on the rich are at historically low levels Not really. The income tax didn't exist before 1913 and the government was way smaller so there wasn't a even need to collect a lot of taxes. Are you thinking of the 50s? Because even in that time people just avoided to declare all their income (it was easier back then) or used other loop holes to avoid paying taxes [1] [1] https://taxfoundation.org/taxes-on-the-rich-1950s-not-high/ https://taxfoundation.org/taxes-on-the-rich-1950s-not-high/
  - TheJoeMan 6y ago
    Exactly, changing the tax RATE is not going to do anything. Plugging up the trickery to not report income is more important
- knodi123 6y ago
  > Current welfare wastes a lot of money on admin/staff/fraud investigations and none of that would be needed with UBI Not to mention a lot of other social programs that would be folded into UBI and eliminated overnight. Social security, food stamps, rent assistance.... That's not enough savings to pay for UBI, but it's an appreciable chunk. And the existence of UBI would imply the existence of a national registry, which would drastically change the equations regarding illegal immigration. Border enforcement becomes a lot less important to some anti-immigrant demographics, if those immigrants cannot receive any welfare. Police for fraud, sure, but maybe you don't need as many fences and armed guards patrolling the border? I'm just saying the knock-on effects of such a drastic shift in society would be huge, so expecting a simple comparison of current costs and revenues is so simplistic that it's guaranteed to be off by a lot.
baconandeggs 6y ago
It doesn't. UBI is socialism.
sokoloff 6y ago
The incentive for people to work is that $1000/mo would provide for a pretty meager existence. (This level is already an unaffordable level of UBI if paid to every US adult citizen; this is coming from someone philosophically aligned with UBI but also able to multiply and compare numbers.)
- luckylion 6y ago
  So for Germany, that'd mean it ought to be lower than our current social programs? They provide an okay living, and there's not a lot of incentive to work, which is why we have a lot of long-term unemployment.
  - sokoloff 6y ago
    What is the gross amount paid monthly in Germany? If spent entirely, what amount of that is VAT taxed back to the state?
    - luckylion 6y ago
      ~1000€/mo, regular VAT is 7% for essentials like groceries, 19% for anything else, with a few exceptions. The average worker's income tax rate is ~40%, but they'll also have to pay for health insurance (included in welfare at a subsidized rate), pensions etc.
      - sokoloff 6y ago
        Thanks for the data. To me, that sounds like the end result is within a whisker of $1000/mo after deducting the VAT “rebate” to the German government when that 1000€/mo is consumed almost immediately on a mix of 7% and 19% items.
        luckylion 6y ago
        Sure. The problem is there's little incentive to work. To achieve that, to make it uncomfortable to rely solely on UBI long-term, we'd have to make UBI lower than our current welfare programs. I don't see any proposals for that, much less any support.
Shacklz 6y ago
> How does UBI differentiate itself from socialism, a welfare state and/or communism? From welfare state: By giving it unconditionally. From socialism/communism: You're still allowed to own "means of production", and you're also still allowed to try to maximize profits etc. as a company. Private property, especially owning a business privately, is still a thing. > What incentive would there be for people to work? You work because you want to lead a somewhat nice life, where you're able to afford things. UBI (at least the more serious proposals) would cover just the very basics: You'll be able to afford a roof over your head, food and other such basics. Want to afford some nice things? Need to work. And this is in my opinion the beauty of UBI. Doing a crappy job until the end of my life for a crappy salary that doesn't get me anywhere? No way. Doing a crappy job for a while until I've saved up enough cash to afford something I want? Why not. It incentivizes to make crappy jobs that nobody wants (unless they must) more attractive; accelerating their automatization (see e.g. the garbage truck examples in this thread - people running behind it vs. having an automated crane to do it); giving power to those who currently have no option than to work whatever they're given, no matter how much they dislike it.
- luckylion 6y ago
  > You work because you want to lead a somewhat nice life, where you're able to afford things. UBI (at least the more serious proposals) would cover just the very basics: You'll be able to afford a roof over your head, food and other such basics. Want to afford some nice things? Need to work. Situation in Germany for unemployment / welfare: 450sqft apartment, utilities included, TV, smart phone, 400€/mo cash. Where are those serious proposals that suggest making the UBI pay less than the current social programs?
  - Shacklz 6y ago
    I consider the things you mentioned basics, but YMMV. I reckon that the majority of people would like to have more in their life than that, and would be willing to work to that effect, at least I would be.
  - JacKTrocinskI 6y ago
    I think the main difference with UBI is that in order to receive unemployment welfare you have to not work, they are de-incentivizing working essentially. In the UBI system everyone gets a minimum paycheck and that would basically be like living on welfare however if you want you can go work somewhere else in addition to earn more money and improve your living standards if you want to. Probably minimum wage would have to be raised so that people would want to work as a maid or McDonald's but the economy would adjust to the supply of workers I assume.
jarek-foksa 6y ago
> Where is the money for UBI going to come from? What incentive would there be for people to work? Ideally the money should come from the elite class that is accumulating the capital thanks to automation and monopolization. A huge part of this capital is currently spent in non-productive ways like speculation, lobbying and luxuries. This is what some socialists and social democrats are proposing, though most agree we have not reached the needed level of automation and advancement yet. Neoliberals don't really want the UBI anytime soon, they just hijacked the term and are now bastardizing it just like they did with many other good leftist ideas because they found them either threatening to their interests or useful for their power games. As other posters here have already noticed, "neoliberal UBI" will most likely be used to incite conflict and division between the lower and middle class. They will make the middle class pay the bill while promoting victim mentality and degeneracy among the lower class. This should produce a shitshow that will help keep the wage slaves distracted for the next decade or two until a true UBI becomes a possibility.
- EricE 6y ago
  >Ideally the money should come from the elite class that is accumulating the capital thanks to automation and monopolization. A huge part of this capital is currently spent in non-productive ways like speculation, lobbying and luxuries. The hubris in this is utterly breathtaking.
- notSupplied 6y ago
  "Ideally the money should come from the elite class that is accumulating the capital thanks to automation and monopolization." Have you done the math on this? The scale of UBI is so large that it has to mostly come from the middle class. A meager $20k UBI for all 300 million Americans would cost $6 trillion. Even if you liquidated the 100% of wealth of the top 400 Americans you'd only get $3 trillion, and you're only able to do that once, not every year.

How does UBI differentiate itself from socialism, a welfare state and/or communism? Where is the money for UBI going to come from? What incentive would there be for people to work?

deepinthewoods 6y ago

Tax rates on the rich are at historically low levels. Rich people would still get UBI but the top level tax rate would effectively cancel it out (and more). Current welfare wastes a lot of money on admin/staff/fraud investigations and none of that would be needed with UBI since everyone gets it. People would still want money. UBI isn't going to be enough for a lavish lifestyle, people will still want to work. It would make lower-paying activities like art/open source more viable though.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
0DHm2CxO7Lb3 6y ago
> Tax rates on the rich are at historically low levels Not really. The income tax didn't exist before 1913 and the government was way smaller so there wasn't a even need to collect a lot of taxes. Are you thinking of the 50s? Because even in that time people just avoided to declare all their income (it was easier back then) or used other loop holes to avoid paying taxes [1] [1] https://taxfoundation.org/taxes-on-the-rich-1950s-not-high/ https://taxfoundation.org/taxes-on-the-rich-1950s-not-high/
- TheJoeMan 6y ago
  Exactly, changing the tax RATE is not going to do anything. Plugging up the trickery to not report income is more important
knodi123 6y ago
> Current welfare wastes a lot of money on admin/staff/fraud investigations and none of that would be needed with UBI Not to mention a lot of other social programs that would be folded into UBI and eliminated overnight. Social security, food stamps, rent assistance.... That's not enough savings to pay for UBI, but it's an appreciable chunk. And the existence of UBI would imply the existence of a national registry, which would drastically change the equations regarding illegal immigration. Border enforcement becomes a lot less important to some anti-immigrant demographics, if those immigrants cannot receive any welfare. Police for fraud, sure, but maybe you don't need as many fences and armed guards patrolling the border? I'm just saying the knock-on effects of such a drastic shift in society would be huge, so expecting a simple comparison of current costs and revenues is so simplistic that it's guaranteed to be off by a lot.

baconandeggs 6y ago

It doesn't. UBI is socialism.

sokoloff 6y ago

The incentive for people to work is that $1000/mo would provide for a pretty meager existence. (This level is already an unaffordable level of UBI if paid to every US adult citizen; this is coming from someone philosophically aligned with UBI but also able to multiply and compare numbers.)

luckylion 6y ago
So for Germany, that'd mean it ought to be lower than our current social programs? They provide an okay living, and there's not a lot of incentive to work, which is why we have a lot of long-term unemployment.
- sokoloff 6y ago
  What is the gross amount paid monthly in Germany? If spent entirely, what amount of that is VAT taxed back to the state?
  - luckylion 6y ago
    ~1000€/mo, regular VAT is 7% for essentials like groceries, 19% for anything else, with a few exceptions. The average worker's income tax rate is ~40%, but they'll also have to pay for health insurance (included in welfare at a subsidized rate), pensions etc.
    - sokoloff 6y ago
      Thanks for the data. To me, that sounds like the end result is within a whisker of $1000/mo after deducting the VAT “rebate” to the German government when that 1000€/mo is consumed almost immediately on a mix of 7% and 19% items.
      - luckylion 6y ago
        Sure. The problem is there's little incentive to work. To achieve that, to make it uncomfortable to rely solely on UBI long-term, we'd have to make UBI lower than our current welfare programs. I don't see any proposals for that, much less any support.

Shacklz 6y ago

> How does UBI differentiate itself from socialism, a welfare state and/or communism? From welfare state: By giving it unconditionally. From socialism/communism: You're still allowed to own "means of production", and you're also still allowed to try to maximize profits etc. as a company. Private property, especially owning a business privately, is still a thing. > What incentive would there be for people to work? You work because you want to lead a somewhat nice life, where you're able to afford things. UBI (at least the more serious proposals) would cover just the very basics: You'll be able to afford a roof over your head, food and other such basics. Want to afford some nice things? Need to work. And this is in my opinion the beauty of UBI. Doing a crappy job until the end of my life for a crappy salary that doesn't get me anywhere? No way. Doing a crappy job for a while until I've saved up enough cash to afford something I want? Why not. It incentivizes to make crappy jobs that nobody wants (unless they must) more attractive; accelerating their automatization (see e.g. the garbage truck examples in this thread - people running behind it vs. having an automated crane to do it); giving power to those who currently have no option than to work whatever they're given, no matter how much they dislike it.

luckylion 6y ago
> You work because you want to lead a somewhat nice life, where you're able to afford things. UBI (at least the more serious proposals) would cover just the very basics: You'll be able to afford a roof over your head, food and other such basics. Want to afford some nice things? Need to work. Situation in Germany for unemployment / welfare: 450sqft apartment, utilities included, TV, smart phone, 400€/mo cash. Where are those serious proposals that suggest making the UBI pay less than the current social programs?
- Shacklz 6y ago
  I consider the things you mentioned basics, but YMMV. I reckon that the majority of people would like to have more in their life than that, and would be willing to work to that effect, at least I would be.
- JacKTrocinskI 6y ago
  I think the main difference with UBI is that in order to receive unemployment welfare you have to not work, they are de-incentivizing working essentially. In the UBI system everyone gets a minimum paycheck and that would basically be like living on welfare however if you want you can go work somewhere else in addition to earn more money and improve your living standards if you want to. Probably minimum wage would have to be raised so that people would want to work as a maid or McDonald's but the economy would adjust to the supply of workers I assume.

jarek-foksa 6y ago

> Where is the money for UBI going to come from? What incentive would there be for people to work? Ideally the money should come from the elite class that is accumulating the capital thanks to automation and monopolization. A huge part of this capital is currently spent in non-productive ways like speculation, lobbying and luxuries. This is what some socialists and social democrats are proposing, though most agree we have not reached the needed level of automation and advancement yet. Neoliberals don't really want the UBI anytime soon, they just hijacked the term and are now bastardizing it just like they did with many other good leftist ideas because they found them either threatening to their interests or useful for their power games. As other posters here have already noticed, "neoliberal UBI" will most likely be used to incite conflict and division between the lower and middle class. They will make the middle class pay the bill while promoting victim mentality and degeneracy among the lower class. This should produce a shitshow that will help keep the wage slaves distracted for the next decade or two until a true UBI becomes a possibility.

EricE 6y ago
>Ideally the money should come from the elite class that is accumulating the capital thanks to automation and monopolization. A huge part of this capital is currently spent in non-productive ways like speculation, lobbying and luxuries. The hubris in this is utterly breathtaking.
notSupplied 6y ago
"Ideally the money should come from the elite class that is accumulating the capital thanks to automation and monopolization." Have you done the math on this? The scale of UBI is so large that it has to mostly come from the middle class. A meager $20k UBI for all 300 million Americans would cost $6 trillion. Even if you liquidated the 100% of wealth of the top 400 Americans you'd only get $3 trillion, and you're only able to do that once, not every year.