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Corporations are not particularly hard or expensive to start, maintain, or dissolve - but you need to be at a stage of life where a thousand dollars here or the
by grellas 16y ago
Corporations are not particularly hard or expensive to start, maintain, or dissolve - but you need to be at a stage of life where a thousand dollars here or there is not a major burden. If you are not yet at that stage, that is a different story and there is no doubt that forming or dissolving an entity such as this will normally set you back a thousand or two on either side. In that case, you should tread cautiously unless you can raise some funds (even if it friends-and-family money) to be able to handle such costs without too much pain.
As a lawyer, I would have to say that you should do it by the book and dissolve the entity. I have, however, had a variety of clients over the years who left a Delaware corporation to die without dissolving it and they have not had trailing personal liabilities as a result of the accrued corporate franchise taxes (of course, it is a different matter if the corporation earned a net profit and has an obligation to file income taxes - in that case, failure to file can cause serious problems for the corporation and for its management).
The $89K tax bill is typical of any Delaware corporation that has large numbers of authorized shares, even with a low par value. This often proves a shock to unsuspecting founders who file a do-it-yourself entity without understanding the issues. However, in almost all cases involving an early stage startup, you can deal with this easily by using the alternative valuation method tied to value of assets in the company. Use of the alternative method usually reduces the franchise tax to a very low level. It is easy to find out how to use the alternative method (forms and instructions are available online through the Delaware Secretary of State).
It seems that you needed to set up the entity in order to try to manage the issues with your co-founder and so the choice to set up a corporation was not really a mistake. The choice to set it up in Delaware for a simple situation can be a mistake, in my judgment, but I am probably in the minority among startup lawyers on this issue in believing that a home-state incorporation in the interests of keeping things simple can be and often is the best choice for founders (see http://grellas.com/faq_business_startup_002.html http://grellas.com/faq_business_startup_002.html). It is no disgrace for a Silicon Valley startup to incorporate in California, even for a public company (no less than Apple itself is a California corporation). Had you done a home-state incorporation, you would have avoided the hassles with the $89K tax bill, as most states besides Delaware states have a fixed, low amount that you pay every year as a minimum franchise tax (in California, $800).
Incorporation is definitely not for everyone. When and if to incorporate can be tricky questions. I also have outlined a few of the factors to guide that decision as well (http://grellas.com/faq_business_startup_007.html http://grellas.com/faq_business_startup_007.html).
There are a good number of early-stage startups that really can't easily afford professional fees and so the answer is not to use a lawyer in all cases to incorporate. But, even if you can't afford a lawyer, it is always worth consulting with one for strategic advice on incorporating before you do so. Such a first consultation is dirt cheap in most cases, and sometimes free. The modest amount paid is well worth it just to be alerted to the main issues and pitfalls involved in setting up an entity. Thus, while it was probably not a mistake in itself to set up your corporation, it likely was a big mistake to do so without some guidance of this type (I had made this comment in connection with your original piece as well - http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1924719 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1924719).
Sorry to hear about the business failure. I know the HN community often stresses what a valuable learning experience this can be but there is no denying that it is a very painful affair by any measure.
- notauser 16y agoI suppose in the end it comes down to how much stuff you can (or want) to hold in your head at the same time. My limited company has cost about £50 in administration and set-up fees so far. But the cost of learning enough stuff not to get myself in trouble has probably been tens of hours of otherwise billable time, plus the ever present risk of doing something wrong. The problem is that it can be hard to know what is actually difficult, and what is easy but just expensive because not many people know how to do it. It would be nice if somewhere there was a definitive guide to what is worth doing yourself for any given hourly rate. E.g. if your time is worth £50/hr then doing your own company set up is worth it, but you should hand off pay roll taxes to a professional. If your time is worth £100 an hour, then you should do these three things to cut cost a little, then outsource the rest.
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- mtr 16y agoFor non-US citizens/residents who are building startups focused on the US market, do you have any suggestions on where to incorporate (e.g. in the US, offshore, "home" country etc)? How much of the decision should be based on potential legal issues and how much on tax?
- markklarich 16y agoFrom a tax perspective, locating the US office in a tax free jurisdiction is most wise. These states would include Washington, Nevada, Wyoming, Texas, Florida, and (sort of) New Hampshire. Also, setting up a relationship between the foreign entity and the US entity to minimize US taxes (as Microsoft has done --see above) certainly helps. Finally some attention has to be paid to the tax effects on the US citizens (or green card holders) and the non citizens (or green card holders). Most foreign tax questions involve an expert in the US as well as in the foreign jurisdiction. As for legal issues - contracts are handled internationally all the time with ease. But liability issues vary dramatically from state to state and even more from country to country. For a start up, unless the nature of the business is very liability intense, I would focus on the tax issues. As this article has shown, tax can be really, really expensive.