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> Jerry Yang is Taiwanese...the cultural commitment to suffering is hard to explain...I can imagine he may feel like his employees should be grateful for the op

> Jerry Yang is Taiwanese...the cultural commitment to suffering is hard to explain...I can imagine he may feel like his employees should be grateful for the opportunity to exhibit their suffering. Aaaand stuff like this is exactly why I say Asians face racism in tech and need to push back against the idea that they are "overrepresented" [1]. I really hope that if I'm in a management position, my reports don't feel like I have "cultural commitment that they should be grateful for their suffering" or some such tripe. Oh, and never mind that apparently this is the same company that one of the parent comments is saying was "too nice" because it didn't let an employee go even after they stopped showing up. You really have to work hard to explain that one with an Asian cultural commitment to suffering, eh? I would sincerely suggest to 'killjoywashere that they try saying out the same thing loudly about another minority (say Black people) based on some characteristic they were born with and see how it goes over. Better still, think a little bit about whether you have racist biases if this is your view on things, and maybe try to correct it. > My usual joke with her is asking if she slept well on her bed of nails. I'm going to go out on a limb and say your boss probably doesn't actually appreciate being asked stuff like that all the time. She likely just doesn't want to invite trouble by complaining about it. Oh, and a cursory Wikipedia search reveals that Jerry Yang came to American when he was 10 years old, around 4th grade [2]. ------------------ [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23541590 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23541590 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Yang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Yang

kortilla 6y ago
Being the target of racism and being over-represented are two orthogonal things. Being the target of racism has no impact on your demographics in a population.
- 3FBD4FDE 6y ago
  Being the target of racism sure as hell will impact demographics when the population in a group is voluntary. How many african-americans join the KKK?
  - kortilla 6y ago
    No, the point I was making is that you can’t point to racism or a lack thereof and make any statements about representation. Both over and under-represented groups can be the targets of widespread racism.
    - quadrifoliate 6y ago
      You are correct, and I was incorrectly conflating the two in my previous comment on this subject. Since I can't edit it, the following might explain my position better: Asians get summarily excluded from a lot of minority-focused programs in tech on the basis of being over-represented. This should stop, and Asians should be included in minority-focused programs in tech. This is because (as you said, and as shown by this comment) they can be, and often are a target of casual racism and stereotyping.
      - kortilla 6y ago
        It depends on the purpose of the program. If the purpose is to recruit even more, then they shouldn’t be included because they are already over-represented. Many of the minority-focused programs are about recruitment and increasing the pipeline.
kkarakk 6y ago
Culture does contribute to management style and you're being really weirdly politically correct in not accepting it.
- notsureaboutpg 6y ago
  He's not being politically correct about it. He just doesn't agree that people should assume a person from a country follows that country's culture in every way (or even in many ways). If there's other evidence that said person follows such a management style or management culture, fine, but being from somewhere isn't enough. Culture isn't immutable or genetic. It's something we choose and reinforce or reevaluate and deemphasize daily.
- quadrifoliate 6y ago
  It does, for sure! Culture is one of the facets that can contribute to your management style along with a ton of socioeconomic factors. My point is that this often works negatively against Asians, especially in management in a way that it doesn't for other racial groups. Like you're way more likely to see people being okay with casually saying “Jerry Yang is Asian, therefore he overworks his employees” than say “Marvin Ellison is Black, therefore <some other negative characteristic>” in a conversation. That comment was up for more than five hours before I said something about it. I think this is a problem. It's nowhere on the same scale as some of the problems that other minorities face across America. But in my opinion, it's important enough to call out occasionally.
- atarian 6y ago
  The average person doesn't know or care what culture Jerry Yang grew up in or identifies with. He could associate himself with American hip-hop culture for all we know. So assuming Jerry Yang has the same culture as someone else because they're both racially Taiwanese is incorrect and there is nothing "really weird" about pointing that out.
killjoywashere 6y ago
Since you want references, is survey data acceptable? https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3415130 https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3415130 how about forums? https://www.reddit.com/r/taiwan/comments/6aa3x9/what_is_wrong_with_taiwanese_work_culture_what/ https://www.reddit.com/r/taiwan/comments/6aa3x9/what_is_wron... News reports? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-16834258 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-16834258 > Jerry Yang came to American when he was 10 years old, around 4th grade So ... his parents dropped their culture at the shoreline? You know, there really are differences between cultures. That's thing. Italians, on average, really do tend to make better marinara. Find me a black person in America who doesn't know what fatback is (delicious component of certain Southern dishes, by the way). Convince me that the average white person does know what fatback is. Convince me that the average American knows what the Euro is (A night club? A style?). If I said "I imagine Martin Luther may have liked beer and Weisswurst" is that racist? > one of the parent comments is saying was "too nice" Good point, yes, that's completely in line with the "work is next to Godliness" attitude I've observed. In that social norm, being nice is essentially the same as being grateful for the opportunity to take on more work. Nice = more opportunity to work. Now, there's also a bit of "forgive but remember" that goes with that. Those who need niceness all the time, maybe you don't hang out with them as much because you can only handle being so nice, you just can't take on more niceness, you're exhausted! May this dear friend share their opportunities to be nice to them a bit more with their other friends.
- notsureaboutpg 6y ago
  But by the same token not everyone fits into or abides by the dominant culture around them. There surely are black Americans who don't know what fatback is. The very nature of groups is that on average they are different and they always have a significant number of outliers. Culture is real and there are differences between them but they also are chosen each and every day, and you can never tell someone's values just by looking at them.
- quadrifoliate 6y ago
  My point was that “Asians face racism”, because their culture is used to casually make stereotypes like this which may not be accurate. If your boss is from Texas and they're overworking you, is your first reaction to pull out survey data about how 50% of Texans believe in suffering as a form of atonement? Or is it just to say “What a jerk”? When people talk about Peter Thiel, how many times do they link his behaviors to elements of German culture and history? By all means, if Jerry Yang was overworking his employees, call it out on the basis of him overworking his employees! But I don't want to be stereotyped and targeted because of something people in the place I originally came from do. It could very well be that Jerry Yang's parents came to America to escape the overworking culture, and therefore he has a keener sense of not overworking his employees than the average American has. Maybe that's why he didn't fire people that stop showing up to work! You have no way of knowing, and you're idly speculating. Also – I am Asian, was not born in America, and know perfectly well what fatback and the Euro are. Another data point perhaps for throwing out some notions about what people may or may not know.

kortilla 6y ago

Being the target of racism and being over-represented are two orthogonal things. Being the target of racism has no impact on your demographics in a population.

3FBD4FDE 6y ago
Being the target of racism sure as hell will impact demographics when the population in a group is voluntary. How many african-americans join the KKK?
- kortilla 6y ago
  No, the point I was making is that you can’t point to racism or a lack thereof and make any statements about representation. Both over and under-represented groups can be the targets of widespread racism.
  - quadrifoliate 6y ago
    You are correct, and I was incorrectly conflating the two in my previous comment on this subject. Since I can't edit it, the following might explain my position better: Asians get summarily excluded from a lot of minority-focused programs in tech on the basis of being over-represented. This should stop, and Asians should be included in minority-focused programs in tech. This is because (as you said, and as shown by this comment) they can be, and often are a target of casual racism and stereotyping.
    - kortilla 6y ago
      It depends on the purpose of the program. If the purpose is to recruit even more, then they shouldn’t be included because they are already over-represented. Many of the minority-focused programs are about recruitment and increasing the pipeline.

kkarakk 6y ago

Culture does contribute to management style and you're being really weirdly politically correct in not accepting it.

notsureaboutpg 6y ago
He's not being politically correct about it. He just doesn't agree that people should assume a person from a country follows that country's culture in every way (or even in many ways). If there's other evidence that said person follows such a management style or management culture, fine, but being from somewhere isn't enough. Culture isn't immutable or genetic. It's something we choose and reinforce or reevaluate and deemphasize daily.
quadrifoliate 6y ago
It does, for sure! Culture is one of the facets that can contribute to your management style along with a ton of socioeconomic factors. My point is that this often works negatively against Asians, especially in management in a way that it doesn't for other racial groups. Like you're way more likely to see people being okay with casually saying “Jerry Yang is Asian, therefore he overworks his employees” than say “Marvin Ellison is Black, therefore <some other negative characteristic>” in a conversation. That comment was up for more than five hours before I said something about it. I think this is a problem. It's nowhere on the same scale as some of the problems that other minorities face across America. But in my opinion, it's important enough to call out occasionally.
atarian 6y ago
The average person doesn't know or care what culture Jerry Yang grew up in or identifies with. He could associate himself with American hip-hop culture for all we know. So assuming Jerry Yang has the same culture as someone else because they're both racially Taiwanese is incorrect and there is nothing "really weird" about pointing that out.

killjoywashere 6y ago

Since you want references, is survey data acceptable? https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3415130 https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3415130 how about forums? https://www.reddit.com/r/taiwan/comments/6aa3x9/what_is_wrong_with_taiwanese_work_culture_what/ https://www.reddit.com/r/taiwan/comments/6aa3x9/what_is_wron... News reports? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-16834258 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-16834258 > Jerry Yang came to American when he was 10 years old, around 4th grade So ... his parents dropped their culture at the shoreline? You know, there really are differences between cultures. That's thing. Italians, on average, really do tend to make better marinara. Find me a black person in America who doesn't know what fatback is (delicious component of certain Southern dishes, by the way). Convince me that the average white person does know what fatback is. Convince me that the average American knows what the Euro is (A night club? A style?). If I said "I imagine Martin Luther may have liked beer and Weisswurst" is that racist? > one of the parent comments is saying was "too nice" Good point, yes, that's completely in line with the "work is next to Godliness" attitude I've observed. In that social norm, being nice is essentially the same as being grateful for the opportunity to take on more work. Nice = more opportunity to work. Now, there's also a bit of "forgive but remember" that goes with that. Those who need niceness all the time, maybe you don't hang out with them as much because you can only handle being so nice, you just can't take on more niceness, you're exhausted! May this dear friend share their opportunities to be nice to them a bit more with their other friends.

notsureaboutpg 6y ago
But by the same token not everyone fits into or abides by the dominant culture around them. There surely are black Americans who don't know what fatback is. The very nature of groups is that on average they are different and they always have a significant number of outliers. Culture is real and there are differences between them but they also are chosen each and every day, and you can never tell someone's values just by looking at them.
quadrifoliate 6y ago
My point was that “Asians face racism”, because their culture is used to casually make stereotypes like this which may not be accurate. If your boss is from Texas and they're overworking you, is your first reaction to pull out survey data about how 50% of Texans believe in suffering as a form of atonement? Or is it just to say “What a jerk”? When people talk about Peter Thiel, how many times do they link his behaviors to elements of German culture and history? By all means, if Jerry Yang was overworking his employees, call it out on the basis of him overworking his employees! But I don't want to be stereotyped and targeted because of something people in the place I originally came from do. It could very well be that Jerry Yang's parents came to America to escape the overworking culture, and therefore he has a keener sense of not overworking his employees than the average American has. Maybe that's why he didn't fire people that stop showing up to work! You have no way of knowing, and you're idly speculating. Also – I am Asian, was not born in America, and know perfectly well what fatback and the Euro are. Another data point perhaps for throwing out some notions about what people may or may not know.