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The problem I see with that is that if a huge number of people take that route and happily (let's assume) live their lives without working, they lose access to

The problem I see with that is that if a huge number of people take that route and happily (let's assume) live their lives without working, they lose access to the ability to participate in a meaningful way in the economy by producing something of value; if they're not producing value, no one is going to value them, and they'll eventually be locked out of the new, smaller elite group that controls the means of production, and the power that goes along with that.

plushpuffin 6y ago
You should read the Beggars trilogy by Nancy Kress. It's about a world that gradually devolves into just that.
lkschubert8 6y ago
This gets at a problem I always wonder about with UBI (as someone who genuinely sees the value in a successful implementation of it). What happens in 20-30 years once the system has been entrenched. Will the children of those that choose not to work for additional income have decreased social capital an struggle to enter the workplace if they choose? How do you prevent those that choose to work from using the increased wealth to exert force on those who didn't? These are the actually problems I see around UBI, not how to balance the budget.
- dantheman 6y ago
  More importantly, how do you keep the workers from leaving? Because you're existence depends on living off of the work of others against their will.
- Rapzid 6y ago
  This is actually a really, really good question. It could create entire new future populations of disadvantaged and disenfranchised people with the same types of afflictions as the current groups. True equal access and opportunity would mitigate that of course, but good luck there.
- Bootwizard 6y ago
  This is the actual dilemma with UBI that should be discussed. I feel though that not everyone who leaves the workforce will generate $0 in value. There are many people who would rather create their own small business, maybe selling a minor product, streaming video games, or any number of things. Over the past few months I've realized that there is so much opportunity to work for yourself online by providing some niche service that you really can sustain yourself. If you have enough time, patience, and money to find that niche and work at it that is.
- sgustard 6y ago
  It's similar to children of mothers who all stayed at home. A generation later, many of their daughters decide (or are forced) to enter the workforce, but not all. I see working and non-working moms coexist today without any undue tension.
- cyberdrunk 6y ago
  > What happens in 20-30 years once the system has been entrenched. What about a scenario where we get one big step closer to a vision shown in Idiocracy? A world where people don't need to struggle may be great for some self-directed people, but I suspect it will be ultimately terrible for many (even if they won' see it that way).
czbond 6y ago
From a nilhistic point of view, isn't most work already performed by human useless and pointless in both the grand and minor scale? I do agree that my observation even from the Covid lockdown, is that many people's default state to pursue is activities with 'ease or non-challenged' rather than 'difficult '. To me, Covid lockdown proved why UBI was a bad idea. If humans have free time, they create dance videos on Tik-tok.
- aiisjustanif 6y ago
  Most people that have free time to create videos are teenagers of college kids on unemployment living back with mom and dad. While most people are still working/ busting there ass or stressed to the core.
- lovehashbrowns 6y ago
  Taking your completely nihilistic view, why is working a useless and pointless job better than creating dance videos on tik tok?
  - slx26 6y ago
    Also, it's obvious there's a lot of people using their time for more interesting things too, even despite the fact that we are pretty isolated and in a high stress situation. And I'd say that if that doesn't get so much publicity is because the spaces we have for that kind of interactions are kinda anemic in modern society (maybe due to spending most of our time working on pointless jobs?).
    - lovehashbrowns 6y ago
      Good point! We also have to think how long it takes to go from having to work pointless jobs to not having to work at all. Maybe it would be a generational thing where the first group of people will primarily spend time doing things that are deemed pointless (making dancing videos on tik tok), and the next generation is able to grow up more liberated and able to produce more "valuable" things--art, music, poetry, whatever. Right now, a lot of people seem to think having any job is what makes them valuable. That's not something you get over quickly or easily. Even stay-at-home parents have this up-hill battle. People in the US are still trying to fight for paternity leave. "Not working" is such an evil concept.
rabidrat 6y ago
I don't see how this is any different from the current group of "unskilled" workers who aren't valued (even if they are "essential"). At least with UBI they can live reasonable lives and create their own meaning, through community or art or activism or religion. Any of which are better outcomes than sacrificing most of their time on bullshit jobs which break their backs and/or their spirits.
- nextlevelwizard 6y ago
  It is year 2061. I live at the Universal Housing City 14 (or UHC14). Due to rises in housing prices and rent over the years we UBI receivers had to be relocated to these new cities. I was born here as my parents decided to abandon their jobs in favor of pursuing meaning in their lives. Now I can not leave this place. There is no way to earn an income, since everyone here is provided by the UBI and thus no way to pay for education. All of the unskilled labor was automated when UBI laws came to be and first people left factories empty. I am not qualified to do anything in the outside world.
  - LordDragonfang 6y ago
    >All of the unskilled labor was automated when UBI laws came to be and first people left factories empty. Now, imagine the world in which that is true and we don't pay people basic income. Millions starving on the streets sounds so much better.
  - undersuit 6y ago
    >Due to rises in housing prices and rent over the years we UBI receivers had to be relocated to these new cities. Wouldn't that increase the supply of housing and reduce the price?
    - nextlevelwizard 6y ago
      Yes. That was the point in my little dark fantasy. UBI would increase the current price of rents, which is why government had to build new cities that were 100% subsidized by then (in from of UBI) since just UBI was not enough to pay rent anywhere anymore. i.e. if as a hypothetical landlord I know for a fact that you get $XXX/mo from government "for free" then why wouldn't I ask $XXX/mo in rent?
jopsen 6y ago
Hmm, maybe it's more gradual.. with UBI maybe some people will choose to work less, rather than giving up work entirely. At the bottom of the pay scale, UBI might not affect how much people work. Because most people have goals beyond mere survival :)

plushpuffin 6y ago

You should read the Beggars trilogy by Nancy Kress. It's about a world that gradually devolves into just that.

lkschubert8 6y ago

This gets at a problem I always wonder about with UBI (as someone who genuinely sees the value in a successful implementation of it). What happens in 20-30 years once the system has been entrenched. Will the children of those that choose not to work for additional income have decreased social capital an struggle to enter the workplace if they choose? How do you prevent those that choose to work from using the increased wealth to exert force on those who didn't? These are the actually problems I see around UBI, not how to balance the budget.

dantheman 6y ago
More importantly, how do you keep the workers from leaving? Because you're existence depends on living off of the work of others against their will.
Rapzid 6y ago
This is actually a really, really good question. It could create entire new future populations of disadvantaged and disenfranchised people with the same types of afflictions as the current groups. True equal access and opportunity would mitigate that of course, but good luck there.
Bootwizard 6y ago
This is the actual dilemma with UBI that should be discussed. I feel though that not everyone who leaves the workforce will generate $0 in value. There are many people who would rather create their own small business, maybe selling a minor product, streaming video games, or any number of things. Over the past few months I've realized that there is so much opportunity to work for yourself online by providing some niche service that you really can sustain yourself. If you have enough time, patience, and money to find that niche and work at it that is.
sgustard 6y ago
It's similar to children of mothers who all stayed at home. A generation later, many of their daughters decide (or are forced) to enter the workforce, but not all. I see working and non-working moms coexist today without any undue tension.
cyberdrunk 6y ago
> What happens in 20-30 years once the system has been entrenched. What about a scenario where we get one big step closer to a vision shown in Idiocracy? A world where people don't need to struggle may be great for some self-directed people, but I suspect it will be ultimately terrible for many (even if they won' see it that way).

czbond 6y ago

From a nilhistic point of view, isn't most work already performed by human useless and pointless in both the grand and minor scale? I do agree that my observation even from the Covid lockdown, is that many people's default state to pursue is activities with 'ease or non-challenged' rather than 'difficult '. To me, Covid lockdown proved why UBI was a bad idea. If humans have free time, they create dance videos on Tik-tok.

aiisjustanif 6y ago
Most people that have free time to create videos are teenagers of college kids on unemployment living back with mom and dad. While most people are still working/ busting there ass or stressed to the core.
lovehashbrowns 6y ago
Taking your completely nihilistic view, why is working a useless and pointless job better than creating dance videos on tik tok?
- slx26 6y ago
  Also, it's obvious there's a lot of people using their time for more interesting things too, even despite the fact that we are pretty isolated and in a high stress situation. And I'd say that if that doesn't get so much publicity is because the spaces we have for that kind of interactions are kinda anemic in modern society (maybe due to spending most of our time working on pointless jobs?).
  - lovehashbrowns 6y ago
    Good point! We also have to think how long it takes to go from having to work pointless jobs to not having to work at all. Maybe it would be a generational thing where the first group of people will primarily spend time doing things that are deemed pointless (making dancing videos on tik tok), and the next generation is able to grow up more liberated and able to produce more "valuable" things--art, music, poetry, whatever. Right now, a lot of people seem to think having any job is what makes them valuable. That's not something you get over quickly or easily. Even stay-at-home parents have this up-hill battle. People in the US are still trying to fight for paternity leave. "Not working" is such an evil concept.

rabidrat 6y ago

I don't see how this is any different from the current group of "unskilled" workers who aren't valued (even if they are "essential"). At least with UBI they can live reasonable lives and create their own meaning, through community or art or activism or religion. Any of which are better outcomes than sacrificing most of their time on bullshit jobs which break their backs and/or their spirits.

nextlevelwizard 6y ago
It is year 2061. I live at the Universal Housing City 14 (or UHC14). Due to rises in housing prices and rent over the years we UBI receivers had to be relocated to these new cities. I was born here as my parents decided to abandon their jobs in favor of pursuing meaning in their lives. Now I can not leave this place. There is no way to earn an income, since everyone here is provided by the UBI and thus no way to pay for education. All of the unskilled labor was automated when UBI laws came to be and first people left factories empty. I am not qualified to do anything in the outside world.
- LordDragonfang 6y ago
  >All of the unskilled labor was automated when UBI laws came to be and first people left factories empty. Now, imagine the world in which that is true and we don't pay people basic income. Millions starving on the streets sounds so much better.
- undersuit 6y ago
  >Due to rises in housing prices and rent over the years we UBI receivers had to be relocated to these new cities. Wouldn't that increase the supply of housing and reduce the price?
  - nextlevelwizard 6y ago
    Yes. That was the point in my little dark fantasy. UBI would increase the current price of rents, which is why government had to build new cities that were 100% subsidized by then (in from of UBI) since just UBI was not enough to pay rent anywhere anymore. i.e. if as a hypothetical landlord I know for a fact that you get $XXX/mo from government "for free" then why wouldn't I ask $XXX/mo in rent?

jopsen 6y ago

Hmm, maybe it's more gradual.. with UBI maybe some people will choose to work less, rather than giving up work entirely. At the bottom of the pay scale, UBI might not affect how much people work. Because most people have goals beyond mere survival :)