5 ms·

Hygiene Theater Is a Waste of Time

18 points by jelliclesfarm 6y ago

aliswe 6y ago
I thought about that, never seen anything be disinfected in Sweden. Then I saw images of these huge disinfecting trucks in Syria I was very perplexed, and remember thinking "are we fighting the same disease?"... Just thinking aloud here, not making a statement. http://sana.sy/en/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/q.jpg http://sana.sy/en/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/q.jpg
- jelliclesfarm 6y ago
  It could be a temperature thing too. Sweden is for most time considered cold vs Syria is a desert type clime, no? Would that make a difference? I am wondering too.
aaron695 6y ago
Michael Osterholm talks a bit on this in March and how hand washing is somewhat pointless - https://youtu.be/E3URhJx0NSw?t=2634 https://youtu.be/E3URhJx0NSw?t=2634 You can talk about hand washing stopping other diseases etc but by ignoring how C19 is about breathing why would you expect people to suddenly believe masks matter. Even pushing outdoor dining and activities, if we are taught it's contact, once again people won't respond.
- rurban 6y ago
  Hand washing is not really pointless at all. It prevents the surface - eye transmission, which has a likelyhood of about 5% of all such infections. Even with only once confirmed case so far, the one in Singapore. What is pointless is excessive surface cleaning, which could be prevented by simply hand washing, or not touching your eyes.
- touristtam 6y ago
  The article isn't about that, it's about focusing on surface cleaning and offering a false sense of security, while taking resources and time from other activities as the previous studies haven't been forward in regards to the dose of pathogen used in said studies; there is no evidence showing an increase of virus transmission through surface touching in the real world. Now you should still wash your hands with soap.
DoingIsLearning 6y ago
Great level-headed article. What I still haven't seen any balanced writing on, is the difference between airborne transmission and _aerosol_ transmission. If we have aerosol transmission then flushing a toilet could create a plume of GI corona virus for several minutes. If we have Aerosol transmission sneezing in a closed space would create lingering aerosolized particles in the region for several minutes long after that person leaves the room. Also with aerosol particles normal non-filter face masks are pretty useless. So far I've just read a lot of conflicting communication on how likely Aerosol transmission is? I am not trying to create unnecessary fear, but I genuinely would like to know my odds when I am circulating through public spaces?
- rurban 6y ago
  Known values. The ratios aerosol, airborne, surface contact are estimated at 90% - 5% - 5% likelyhood, plus other minor transmissions. Remember that normal face masks have an efficiency of about 5%, but still had measurable impact in large numbers.
  - DoingIsLearning 6y ago
    I don't want to question the numbers, but for completeness sake could you link to a source on the estimated transmission probabilities?
vanusa 6y ago
I wanted to take this article seriously, but had to stop right about here. To some American companies and Florida men, COVID-19 is apparently a war that will be won through antimicrobial blasting, to ensure that pathogens are banished from every square inch of America’s surface area. This is a straw man. No one is suggesting that cleaning surfaces (by itself) will "win the war". Only that it is one avenue of defense among many available.

18 points by jelliclesfarm 6y ago

I thought about that, never seen anything be disinfected in Sweden. Then I saw images of these huge disinfecting trucks in Syria I was very perplexed, and remember thinking "are we fighting the same disease?"... Just thinking aloud here, not making a statement. http://sana.sy/en/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/q.jpg http://sana.sy/en/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/q.jpg

jelliclesfarm 6y ago
It could be a temperature thing too. Sweden is for most time considered cold vs Syria is a desert type clime, no? Would that make a difference? I am wondering too.

aaron695 6y ago

Michael Osterholm talks a bit on this in March and how hand washing is somewhat pointless - https://youtu.be/E3URhJx0NSw?t=2634 https://youtu.be/E3URhJx0NSw?t=2634 You can talk about hand washing stopping other diseases etc but by ignoring how C19 is about breathing why would you expect people to suddenly believe masks matter. Even pushing outdoor dining and activities, if we are taught it's contact, once again people won't respond.

rurban 6y ago
Hand washing is not really pointless at all. It prevents the surface - eye transmission, which has a likelyhood of about 5% of all such infections. Even with only once confirmed case so far, the one in Singapore. What is pointless is excessive surface cleaning, which could be prevented by simply hand washing, or not touching your eyes.
touristtam 6y ago
The article isn't about that, it's about focusing on surface cleaning and offering a false sense of security, while taking resources and time from other activities as the previous studies haven't been forward in regards to the dose of pathogen used in said studies; there is no evidence showing an increase of virus transmission through surface touching in the real world. Now you should still wash your hands with soap.

DoingIsLearning 6y ago

Great level-headed article. What I still haven't seen any balanced writing on, is the difference between airborne transmission and _aerosol_ transmission. If we have aerosol transmission then flushing a toilet could create a plume of GI corona virus for several minutes. If we have Aerosol transmission sneezing in a closed space would create lingering aerosolized particles in the region for several minutes long after that person leaves the room. Also with aerosol particles normal non-filter face masks are pretty useless. So far I've just read a lot of conflicting communication on how likely Aerosol transmission is? I am not trying to create unnecessary fear, but I genuinely would like to know my odds when I am circulating through public spaces?

rurban 6y ago
Known values. The ratios aerosol, airborne, surface contact are estimated at 90% - 5% - 5% likelyhood, plus other minor transmissions. Remember that normal face masks have an efficiency of about 5%, but still had measurable impact in large numbers.
- DoingIsLearning 6y ago
  I don't want to question the numbers, but for completeness sake could you link to a source on the estimated transmission probabilities?

vanusa 6y ago

I wanted to take this article seriously, but had to stop right about here. To some American companies and Florida men, COVID-19 is apparently a war that will be won through antimicrobial blasting, to ensure that pathogens are banished from every square inch of America’s surface area. This is a straw man. No one is suggesting that cleaning surfaces (by itself) will "win the war". Only that it is one avenue of defense among many available.