11 ms·

Chronic mania and persistent euphoric states

123 points by apsec112 6y ago

pyentropy 6y ago
I think all emotional states can be triggered electrochemichally for arbitrary durations. The reason all humans aren't like the manic people mentioned in the article is that it's not an evolutionary stable strategy. They hoard, steal, flirt too much and cooperation cannot happen. Which brings me to a scary question - what stops a future radical extremist from capturing enemies and triggering the most extreme pain that no one has ever felt before with electrodes? Or gene editing millions of babies to be in constant extreme pain for their whole lifetime, without limbs or senses to be able to change anything (inspired by Metallica - One)?
- kanobo 6y ago
  That's horrible food for thought - but I think humans have pretty good sensory adaptation, we don't constantly thinking about how we have clothes on. I imagine after a couple years or so people will adapt or be numb to the pain.
  - pyentropy 6y ago
    The article says adaptation can be bypassed.
- andai 6y ago
  On a lighter note, I heard of an unusual school of ethics which says that we will soon have the technology (and the moral obligation) to modify all sentient life in such a way as to completely eliminate suffering from the universe.
afarrell 6y ago
I'm curious what knowledgable folks think about Slate Star Codex's description of Mania as "high confidence optimism". It sounds like the top-right quadrant of https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/03/08/ssc-journal-club-friston-on-computational-mood/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/03/08/ssc-journal-club-frist....
- afarrell 6y ago
  Sidenote: I've just realized why the 4-quadrant graph has a "missing emotion" for the top left (low-confidence optimisim): 1. English does not have a specific word for that feeling of excitement about things accompanied by inability to stick with any particular thing if it doesn't give immediate positive feedback. "Hyperactivity" comes close the half of it that isn't wandering around on Wikipedia, but that describes a behavior, not an internal state. 2. The people who come to see psychiatrists and therapists about their own problems don't tend to complain about that emotion. Seeing a bunch of different exciting possibilities is fun! We tend to want help with resulting difficulty managing their schedules, sleep, relationships, priorities, and yknow... actually following through on finishing things rather than getting distracted... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ There is a mental health book written as an allegory to an IT department called The Phoenix Project. While it mostly seems to deal with anxiety, it is pretty applicable here. This is the same pattern of executive dysfunction that swaps Brent from task to task and leads the protaganist to say to the Chief Executive [Function] Officer "Commitments like the compliance work are made without any regard for what’s already on people’s plates, like Phoenix.”
  - ngold 6y ago
    This sounds a lot like chronic decision fatigue. Without basic human help, we are told to go get the American dream, but never ask for help when you get cancer and it wipes out all future generations wealth accumulation.
stcorbett 6y ago
Are Tibetan monks training their brains and their surroundings to produce a prolonged or constant positive state? The positive psychology movement in some senses is a brain training for prolonged positive feelings.
- maze-le 6y ago
  I am not sure if this is a good state in the long run. What do you live for when everything is always/mostly positive in your head -- but reality is as sad as it ever was. Do you really have an incentive to change something to the better if you are in a constant state of happiness? I think happiness is a state the brain produces to reward itself for good outcomes in life decisions. The fact that it is only of limited time and intensity has its (evolutionary) reasons -- they are not the worst of all reasons. Like with depression as chronic sadness and fatigue, chronic happiness is not something we are capable of handling long-term if we want to optimize outcomes for ourselves and others.
  - pkos98 6y ago
    there's no 'better' state when you're already happy. They don't need to change anything when their reality is 'happy'.
    - maze-le 6y ago
      Yes, but only for you. The people you live your life with (some of whom you even love) are in the same state of mind as before, and you have no (or at the very least less) reason to change something for the better for them.
      - TomMarius 6y ago
        I can't understand this position. A positive person often does positive things without a reason or need, especially for their loved ones, as that brings more happiness.
        6y ago
reilly3000 6y ago
Its really important to understand that mania is not optimism, positivism, or much of anything positive really. Its a state of euphoric destruction for bipolar folks, and chronic mania seems to spread those patterns over the balance of a lifetime. It is a disorder, and it benefits from treatment. Its not fun for anybody except for the manic.
- Erlich_Bachman 6y ago
  In other words, the experience of mania is not so much like the experience of MDMA or cocaine, it is more like methamphetamine.
  - suzzer99 6y ago
    MDMA has its benefits in moderation. But cocaine will eventually steal your soul.
    - Erlich_Bachman 6y ago
      Yes, probably. I was not referring so much to "benefits", or lack thereof, but to the subjective experience of the kind of high it gives.
- bjornsing 6y ago
  > It is a disorder, and it benefits from treatment. Its not fun for anybody except for the manic. So whom does the “treatment” benefit? ;P No, real mania is dangerous and the patient surely benefits from treatment. But there is a rather wide gray zone where I sometimes get a feeling it’s not the patient that benefits from the “treatment”, but rather his or her social surroundings. Not entirely unproblematic from an ethical perspective... depending on the reasonableness of those in the social surroundings of course.
  - jac241 6y ago
    The patients benefit from the treatment significantly since a lot of time people who are manic are living recklessly, spending all their money, gambling, being hypersexual, trying drugs, getting into fights, committing crimes, tearing up their relationships, and the list goes on. The percent of people with bipolar disorder who die by suicide is 10-15%. Patients who are hypomanic by definition aren't having marked impairments in social or occupational functioning and won't need to be hospitalized. There's nothing forcing someone who isn't currently on a psychiatric hold to take medication, so if they're taking it it's likely because they believe they're benefitting from it.
himinlomax 6y ago
I knew a family most of whose members could qualify as chronically hypomanic. I made the observation because I had just read on bipolar disorder and mania, and the material stated that mania or hypomania could not be sustained and had to be followed by depressive episodes. This was over 20 years ago so the current understanding, if I'm not mistaken, of bipolar as metabolic (specifically mitochondrial) in origin might not have been the consensus then. I'm not sure about the parents, but the many kids (Catholic) were: - extremely religious, exalted even you could say. At least two of them joined the Church as nun and priest - promiscuous (lol) in at least one case (my roommate) or at least very flirtatious - talked very fast all the time - always bouncing around And so on. As far as I know none had had significant depressive episodes.
- andai 6y ago
  There's a theory that a "unipolar" variant of Type II bipolar, ie. unipolar hypomania, is the condition most commonly associated with successful entrepreneurship.
  - himinlomax 6y ago
    I'm not so sure about that, one the typical characteristics of even mild hypomania, impulsivity, is clearly incompatible with long term endeavors. I've seen papers saying that very mild chronic depression might be associated with professional success, not sure how well they'll hold up. From the five factor point of view, as far as I understand there is some evidence that high openness to new experience (for new ventures), high conscientiousness, below average agreeableness along with high IQ are strongly correlated with success. Not so much for neuroticism and extraversion, though the latter probably helps in some specific jobs (but surprisingly, not necessarily sales).
    - JackMorgan 6y ago
      I'm fairly sure I know someone who's unipolar BP type II, and while sometimes they can be very depressed or fatigued, the vast majority of the time they have absolutely mind boggling stamina for challenge. They constantly read, think, plan, experiment, and just get stuff done. When combined with a work ethic and intelligence, they manage to somehow pull off remarkable feats on a daily basis. It's not at all surprising to consider that they'd be extremely successful at starting a business, if that was what they chose to do. They're almost like the guy from Limitless, when they put their mind to something it just happens like magic. Of course, they rarely stay focused on anything for too long, so starting a business they'd likely feel too trapped. They're always eyeing the exits, because they're so restless and need freedom like we need air. This makes sense to me, every change from the average comes with corresponding pros and cons. The same traits in an office that make someone successful in business might not translate to a survival situation, etc. In their case, I'd say it mostly comes out in the wash. They do decently well at work, but don't commit well to bigger projects, and they don't finish projects well.
jjcm 6y ago
"Now, most of the examples we know of these prolonged euphoric states are undesirable. They often come with reckless or harmful behavior, delusions, and cognitive impairment." I think there's a bit of selection bias here. Often times the only euphoria cases you really hear of are the ones that come along with some sort of detriment, leading the patient or people around them to seek help. I have a gut theory that that chronic elation is just as prominant as chronic depression, but since it rarely effects the person adversely few seek help for it. Throughout my life I've been for the most part overly happy. It's just something myself, my family, and those close to me have noticed. There are issues with it, but they tend to be minor and things that I wouldn't really seek help for: -being happy in inappropriate contexts (people tend to not resonate with you when you're happy at a funeral). -much higher tolerance with ambiguity. I'm OK with being lost somewhere, which tends to annoy those around me as I tend to wander towards a destination rather than taking an optimal route. -and an exageration of smile wrinkles on my face. The negative impact to my life is quite low. Since I'd never seek help for it, it would never really be recorded anywhere. I suspect there are plenty of people with a chronic elation that are in the same boat - there's no onus to address it as an issue. I have no idea what makes me tick differently, but I suspect with a larger understanding of human biology we'll eventually be able to isolate these things and find an optimal amount of happy for humans to have as a baseline.
- johnchristopher 6y ago
  Isn't there something about genetic predisposition to happiness https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/8q8kb4/this-gene-mutation-causes-some-people-to-feel-naturally-high https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/8q8kb4/this-gene-mutation... ? > -being happy in inappropriate contexts (people tend to not resonate with you when you're happy at a funeral). Oh ! I have that. I somehow feel very calm and tranquil at a funeral. I understand it's a breaking point for people and it brings into focus a lot of emotions and tensions and I have that too but not at funeral.
- comboy 6y ago
  In case of some failure - like not achieving your goal, losing somebody close, miscommunication with other people etc. - do you also stay happy? And what about anger? Or boredom? Do you keep smile on your face when fighting with package compatibility of packages that you did not mean to upgrade but needed to because you wanted to change some small thing real quick? Legit questions. From evolutionary standpoint I guess we should see biases on both sides, but back when living in the wild I would assume that more pessimistic worldview would be associated with higher survival rate. Not the case in today's world.
skim_milk 6y ago
Here's a very similar article from yesterday! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23992913 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23992913 Apparently we're all getting burnt out from meditating too much during our lockdown. Instead of trying to work towards a permanent good mood, here's some perspective from a psychotherapist on high mood (or higher consciousness as it is described here) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqCOss4hqnE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqCOss4hqnE Perhaps instead of trying to make it permanent, we should gather insights from our temporary high mood when it comes, and learn to embrace our default non-euphoric mood because high mood doesn't sit so well with our important tasks at hand. Now get back to work.
- DenisM 6y ago
  Climbing the mood mountain is highly individual but the basecamp is shared by most - suspend all responsibilities for two weeks, reduce or suspend all media, load up on favorite music, find HIIT You love, disconnect the phone apart from maps, go somewhere sunny, read enjoyable books, hang out with other people who are chilling (Climbers, hikers, mnt bikers, etc). Two weeks of this will put you way above the clouds, the path up from there will be more individual.
vinceguidry 6y ago
I've spent a lot of time meditating on mood. I'm highly skeptical of drugs as a tool to produce lasting euphoria. Producing long-lasting euphoric states through meditation eventually creates a state of mind I call 'hollow'. You're happy, but there's an undercurrent of loneliness. I'm completely not surprised about the patient that sank into hoarding and squalor while remaining euphoric. That's precisely what happens, one's state of mind, if it is disconnected from their environment, removes your attention from said environment. Drug addicts do similarly. Since you're not paying attention, your ability to relate to others plummets and eventually your sense of self is supported by this one thing, and it becomes an addiction all on its own. Humans are just rats, emotionally. If you live in a cage, providing a lever that makes you happy about it doesn't take you out of the cage. Unlike rats, humans can make the choice to put themselves into a virtual cage with a virtual morphine lever. Wireheading will certainly become a thing in the future, and it will undoubtedly raise some people's standard of living. There are people that live worse than caged rats.
motohagiography 6y ago
Currently reading Philip K. Dick's "Exegisis," which are his letters and diary entries about his descent (ascent?) into something similar, before he died of a stroke. I'm reading it because after reading about other great minds chased down a similar theme where they seemed to discover something later in life and retreated from the world to explore it. I wanted to see what a set of reference points might look like. The end of this article references something called "wireheading," which seems to be a deeper explanation of why the article was written. https://qualiacomputing.com/2016/08/20/wireheading_done_right/ https://qualiacomputing.com/2016/08/20/wireheading_done_righ...
- yourad_io 6y ago
  > Exegisis "explanation" in Greek
chrisweekly 6y ago
Related tangent: Author Richard Powers (2019 Pulitzer winner for "Overstory", an amazing novel about trees) wrote an under-appreciated novel called "Generosity: An Enhancement", which centers on a young woman with extraordinary resilience and positive affect in the face of difficult circumstances. Highly recommended.
dhruvkar 6y ago
Often, counterpoints used to cast doubt on someone's state of consciousness take current societal norms as the bar to cross, e.g. 'he couldn’t hold down a job' or 'he was divorced twice' I feel this is an apples/oranges situation. Living up to society's current standards is no indication of evolved consciousness.
throw18376 6y ago
i'm a little bit perturbed that the rationalist subculture might be seeing these mental states as desirable. the big problem, apart from the obvious issues with impulsive and reckless decision making, is delusional and bizarre thinking. full-grade mania can have full-grade psychosis, but even the "desirable" hypomania here can come with lesser forms of something obviously related. somebody might be a little too prone to see coincidences, to make unjustified inferences about other people's mental states, to perceive "messages from the universe", to perceive patterns and connections between unrelated things, to believe that they have the ability to somehow influence or foretell the future, etc. like euphoria, these are all pretty much harmless and common things in themselves. it seems to me that hypomania (and drugs, etc.) ramps them up in the same way it does euphoria, and as long as it doesn't go too far, it doesn't outright prevent people from functioning. i wonder whether it's even possible to separate the two -- i find "predictive processing" explanations of mania to be intuitively convincing, so it seems like euphoria and weird thinking might be connected in some way. i don't like the idea of the rationalist crowd, many of whom are smart, driven, and capable, and value clear thinking, getting into states of mind like this, especially since they tend to come with anosognosia. it doesn't seem good. Even if the goal is "wireheading done right" with some future technology such that problems can be avoided, the pattern with this subculture seems to be that some people will try to experiment with whatever closest equivalent is available now seriously underestimating risks. if you're thinking to yourself "how can I become hypomanic to make myself more productive and creative", please don't. (also, if rationalist types do start trying to make themselves hypomanic, one result might be that the AI/singularity/simulation stuff will turn into something that really is a religion.)
- DenisM 6y ago
  Risky behavior is an inalienable right much like riding a motorcycle or climbing rocks. There is more to life than longevity.
cc23 6y ago
This is article is borderline offensive for people that actually experience mania. The author cherry picks symptoms to say that chronic mania always feels good for the manic. This is definitely not the case for bipolar mania, and a quick Google search shows this is not the case for chronic mania. In fact, many chronic mania patients are characterized as dysphoric. Yes, mania feels good at times, really good, but at other times, it feels extremely uncomfortable. Your euphoric emotions can quickly turn to anger. Being aggressive usually has it's roots in some emotion that is not pleasant. Even just general speeding is not pleasant all of the time. Sure, there may be a few people who experience chronic mania in a way that doesn't ever feel bad for them. But most manic people experience negative subjective feelings from their mania at one point or another. To say that mania always feels good, and is a state to aspire to, is dangerous for people who actually do experience mania, and extremely tone deaf and out of touch for those who don't experience mania.
- ditonal 6y ago
  Thank you so much for saying this. Bipolar disorder is badly misunderstood by the general population, but one of the most common misconceptions is that mania is the opposite of depression and therefore good. For me, mania was hell on earth. The risk of self-harm is a lot higher in mania than depression and doctors are far more concerned with stopping mania than depression, to the extent they won’t treat depression if the risk of mania is too high. One source of this misconception is the stereotype of people creating art while manic (probably hypomanic). Another is that bipolar disorder is a big spectrum and many type 2 people having hypomania with some euphoric aspects. But I don’t think I’ve met anyone who isn’t type 1 or knows someone who is that has a good understanding that mania is very often a nightmare. After my last manic episode finished I pretty much laid in bed for 6 months doing nothing but fantasizing about killing myself and I’d much rather relive that then relive the mania that preceded it.
- sgillen 6y ago
  The author does pay some lip service to this: >>(Often in these case studies the euphoria is punctuated by irritability, but not sadness or depressed mood.) Now, most of the examples we know of these prolonged euphoric states are undesirable. They often come with reckless or harmful behavior, delusions, and cognitive impairment. But I agree, I think most of the manic episodes described should probably be called euphoric hypomania.
FrankyHollywood 6y ago
'The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck' is a good read in the same spectrum
maybe-idiot 6y ago
I’m surprised this article makes no mention of hypomania, which is close to mania but doesn’t cross the threshold. People can be hypomanic for years without rousing concern amongst friends, family, coworkers, medical staff.

123 points by apsec112 6y ago

I think all emotional states can be triggered electrochemichally for arbitrary durations. The reason all humans aren't like the manic people mentioned in the article is that it's not an evolutionary stable strategy. They hoard, steal, flirt too much and cooperation cannot happen. Which brings me to a scary question - what stops a future radical extremist from capturing enemies and triggering the most extreme pain that no one has ever felt before with electrodes? Or gene editing millions of babies to be in constant extreme pain for their whole lifetime, without limbs or senses to be able to change anything (inspired by Metallica - One)?

kanobo 6y ago
That's horrible food for thought - but I think humans have pretty good sensory adaptation, we don't constantly thinking about how we have clothes on. I imagine after a couple years or so people will adapt or be numb to the pain.
- pyentropy 6y ago
  The article says adaptation can be bypassed.
andai 6y ago
On a lighter note, I heard of an unusual school of ethics which says that we will soon have the technology (and the moral obligation) to modify all sentient life in such a way as to completely eliminate suffering from the universe.

afarrell 6y ago

I'm curious what knowledgable folks think about Slate Star Codex's description of Mania as "high confidence optimism". It sounds like the top-right quadrant of https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/03/08/ssc-journal-club-friston-on-computational-mood/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/03/08/ssc-journal-club-frist....

afarrell 6y ago
Sidenote: I've just realized why the 4-quadrant graph has a "missing emotion" for the top left (low-confidence optimisim): 1. English does not have a specific word for that feeling of excitement about things accompanied by inability to stick with any particular thing if it doesn't give immediate positive feedback. "Hyperactivity" comes close the half of it that isn't wandering around on Wikipedia, but that describes a behavior, not an internal state. 2. The people who come to see psychiatrists and therapists about their own problems don't tend to complain about that emotion. Seeing a bunch of different exciting possibilities is fun! We tend to want help with resulting difficulty managing their schedules, sleep, relationships, priorities, and yknow... actually following through on finishing things rather than getting distracted... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ There is a mental health book written as an allegory to an IT department called The Phoenix Project. While it mostly seems to deal with anxiety, it is pretty applicable here. This is the same pattern of executive dysfunction that swaps Brent from task to task and leads the protaganist to say to the Chief Executive [Function] Officer "Commitments like the compliance work are made without any regard for what’s already on people’s plates, like Phoenix.”
- ngold 6y ago
  This sounds a lot like chronic decision fatigue. Without basic human help, we are told to go get the American dream, but never ask for help when you get cancer and it wipes out all future generations wealth accumulation.

stcorbett 6y ago

Are Tibetan monks training their brains and their surroundings to produce a prolonged or constant positive state? The positive psychology movement in some senses is a brain training for prolonged positive feelings.

maze-le 6y ago
I am not sure if this is a good state in the long run. What do you live for when everything is always/mostly positive in your head -- but reality is as sad as it ever was. Do you really have an incentive to change something to the better if you are in a constant state of happiness? I think happiness is a state the brain produces to reward itself for good outcomes in life decisions. The fact that it is only of limited time and intensity has its (evolutionary) reasons -- they are not the worst of all reasons. Like with depression as chronic sadness and fatigue, chronic happiness is not something we are capable of handling long-term if we want to optimize outcomes for ourselves and others.
- pkos98 6y ago
  there's no 'better' state when you're already happy. They don't need to change anything when their reality is 'happy'.
  - maze-le 6y ago
    Yes, but only for you. The people you live your life with (some of whom you even love) are in the same state of mind as before, and you have no (or at the very least less) reason to change something for the better for them.
    - TomMarius 6y ago
      I can't understand this position. A positive person often does positive things without a reason or need, especially for their loved ones, as that brings more happiness.
      - 6y ago

reilly3000 6y ago

Its really important to understand that mania is not optimism, positivism, or much of anything positive really. Its a state of euphoric destruction for bipolar folks, and chronic mania seems to spread those patterns over the balance of a lifetime. It is a disorder, and it benefits from treatment. Its not fun for anybody except for the manic.

Erlich_Bachman 6y ago
In other words, the experience of mania is not so much like the experience of MDMA or cocaine, it is more like methamphetamine.
- suzzer99 6y ago
  MDMA has its benefits in moderation. But cocaine will eventually steal your soul.
  - Erlich_Bachman 6y ago
    Yes, probably. I was not referring so much to "benefits", or lack thereof, but to the subjective experience of the kind of high it gives.
bjornsing 6y ago
> It is a disorder, and it benefits from treatment. Its not fun for anybody except for the manic. So whom does the “treatment” benefit? ;P No, real mania is dangerous and the patient surely benefits from treatment. But there is a rather wide gray zone where I sometimes get a feeling it’s not the patient that benefits from the “treatment”, but rather his or her social surroundings. Not entirely unproblematic from an ethical perspective... depending on the reasonableness of those in the social surroundings of course.
- jac241 6y ago
  The patients benefit from the treatment significantly since a lot of time people who are manic are living recklessly, spending all their money, gambling, being hypersexual, trying drugs, getting into fights, committing crimes, tearing up their relationships, and the list goes on. The percent of people with bipolar disorder who die by suicide is 10-15%. Patients who are hypomanic by definition aren't having marked impairments in social or occupational functioning and won't need to be hospitalized. There's nothing forcing someone who isn't currently on a psychiatric hold to take medication, so if they're taking it it's likely because they believe they're benefitting from it.

himinlomax 6y ago

I knew a family most of whose members could qualify as chronically hypomanic. I made the observation because I had just read on bipolar disorder and mania, and the material stated that mania or hypomania could not be sustained and had to be followed by depressive episodes. This was over 20 years ago so the current understanding, if I'm not mistaken, of bipolar as metabolic (specifically mitochondrial) in origin might not have been the consensus then. I'm not sure about the parents, but the many kids (Catholic) were: - extremely religious, exalted even you could say. At least two of them joined the Church as nun and priest - promiscuous (lol) in at least one case (my roommate) or at least very flirtatious - talked very fast all the time - always bouncing around And so on. As far as I know none had had significant depressive episodes.

andai 6y ago
There's a theory that a "unipolar" variant of Type II bipolar, ie. unipolar hypomania, is the condition most commonly associated with successful entrepreneurship.
- himinlomax 6y ago
  I'm not so sure about that, one the typical characteristics of even mild hypomania, impulsivity, is clearly incompatible with long term endeavors. I've seen papers saying that very mild chronic depression might be associated with professional success, not sure how well they'll hold up. From the five factor point of view, as far as I understand there is some evidence that high openness to new experience (for new ventures), high conscientiousness, below average agreeableness along with high IQ are strongly correlated with success. Not so much for neuroticism and extraversion, though the latter probably helps in some specific jobs (but surprisingly, not necessarily sales).
  - JackMorgan 6y ago
    I'm fairly sure I know someone who's unipolar BP type II, and while sometimes they can be very depressed or fatigued, the vast majority of the time they have absolutely mind boggling stamina for challenge. They constantly read, think, plan, experiment, and just get stuff done. When combined with a work ethic and intelligence, they manage to somehow pull off remarkable feats on a daily basis. It's not at all surprising to consider that they'd be extremely successful at starting a business, if that was what they chose to do. They're almost like the guy from Limitless, when they put their mind to something it just happens like magic. Of course, they rarely stay focused on anything for too long, so starting a business they'd likely feel too trapped. They're always eyeing the exits, because they're so restless and need freedom like we need air. This makes sense to me, every change from the average comes with corresponding pros and cons. The same traits in an office that make someone successful in business might not translate to a survival situation, etc. In their case, I'd say it mostly comes out in the wash. They do decently well at work, but don't commit well to bigger projects, and they don't finish projects well.

jjcm 6y ago

"Now, most of the examples we know of these prolonged euphoric states are undesirable. They often come with reckless or harmful behavior, delusions, and cognitive impairment." I think there's a bit of selection bias here. Often times the only euphoria cases you really hear of are the ones that come along with some sort of detriment, leading the patient or people around them to seek help. I have a gut theory that that chronic elation is just as prominant as chronic depression, but since it rarely effects the person adversely few seek help for it. Throughout my life I've been for the most part overly happy. It's just something myself, my family, and those close to me have noticed. There are issues with it, but they tend to be minor and things that I wouldn't really seek help for: -being happy in inappropriate contexts (people tend to not resonate with you when you're happy at a funeral). -much higher tolerance with ambiguity. I'm OK with being lost somewhere, which tends to annoy those around me as I tend to wander towards a destination rather than taking an optimal route. -and an exageration of smile wrinkles on my face. The negative impact to my life is quite low. Since I'd never seek help for it, it would never really be recorded anywhere. I suspect there are plenty of people with a chronic elation that are in the same boat - there's no onus to address it as an issue. I have no idea what makes me tick differently, but I suspect with a larger understanding of human biology we'll eventually be able to isolate these things and find an optimal amount of happy for humans to have as a baseline.

johnchristopher 6y ago
Isn't there something about genetic predisposition to happiness https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/8q8kb4/this-gene-mutation-causes-some-people-to-feel-naturally-high https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/8q8kb4/this-gene-mutation... ? > -being happy in inappropriate contexts (people tend to not resonate with you when you're happy at a funeral). Oh ! I have that. I somehow feel very calm and tranquil at a funeral. I understand it's a breaking point for people and it brings into focus a lot of emotions and tensions and I have that too but not at funeral.
comboy 6y ago
In case of some failure - like not achieving your goal, losing somebody close, miscommunication with other people etc. - do you also stay happy? And what about anger? Or boredom? Do you keep smile on your face when fighting with package compatibility of packages that you did not mean to upgrade but needed to because you wanted to change some small thing real quick? Legit questions. From evolutionary standpoint I guess we should see biases on both sides, but back when living in the wild I would assume that more pessimistic worldview would be associated with higher survival rate. Not the case in today's world.

skim_milk 6y ago

Here's a very similar article from yesterday! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23992913 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23992913 Apparently we're all getting burnt out from meditating too much during our lockdown. Instead of trying to work towards a permanent good mood, here's some perspective from a psychotherapist on high mood (or higher consciousness as it is described here) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqCOss4hqnE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqCOss4hqnE Perhaps instead of trying to make it permanent, we should gather insights from our temporary high mood when it comes, and learn to embrace our default non-euphoric mood because high mood doesn't sit so well with our important tasks at hand. Now get back to work.

DenisM 6y ago
Climbing the mood mountain is highly individual but the basecamp is shared by most - suspend all responsibilities for two weeks, reduce or suspend all media, load up on favorite music, find HIIT You love, disconnect the phone apart from maps, go somewhere sunny, read enjoyable books, hang out with other people who are chilling (Climbers, hikers, mnt bikers, etc). Two weeks of this will put you way above the clouds, the path up from there will be more individual.

vinceguidry 6y ago

I've spent a lot of time meditating on mood. I'm highly skeptical of drugs as a tool to produce lasting euphoria. Producing long-lasting euphoric states through meditation eventually creates a state of mind I call 'hollow'. You're happy, but there's an undercurrent of loneliness. I'm completely not surprised about the patient that sank into hoarding and squalor while remaining euphoric. That's precisely what happens, one's state of mind, if it is disconnected from their environment, removes your attention from said environment. Drug addicts do similarly. Since you're not paying attention, your ability to relate to others plummets and eventually your sense of self is supported by this one thing, and it becomes an addiction all on its own. Humans are just rats, emotionally. If you live in a cage, providing a lever that makes you happy about it doesn't take you out of the cage. Unlike rats, humans can make the choice to put themselves into a virtual cage with a virtual morphine lever. Wireheading will certainly become a thing in the future, and it will undoubtedly raise some people's standard of living. There are people that live worse than caged rats.

motohagiography 6y ago

Currently reading Philip K. Dick's "Exegisis," which are his letters and diary entries about his descent (ascent?) into something similar, before he died of a stroke. I'm reading it because after reading about other great minds chased down a similar theme where they seemed to discover something later in life and retreated from the world to explore it. I wanted to see what a set of reference points might look like. The end of this article references something called "wireheading," which seems to be a deeper explanation of why the article was written. https://qualiacomputing.com/2016/08/20/wireheading_done_right/ https://qualiacomputing.com/2016/08/20/wireheading_done_righ...

yourad_io 6y ago
> Exegisis "explanation" in Greek

chrisweekly 6y ago

Related tangent: Author Richard Powers (2019 Pulitzer winner for "Overstory", an amazing novel about trees) wrote an under-appreciated novel called "Generosity: An Enhancement", which centers on a young woman with extraordinary resilience and positive affect in the face of difficult circumstances. Highly recommended.

dhruvkar 6y ago

Often, counterpoints used to cast doubt on someone's state of consciousness take current societal norms as the bar to cross, e.g. 'he couldn’t hold down a job' or 'he was divorced twice' I feel this is an apples/oranges situation. Living up to society's current standards is no indication of evolved consciousness.

throw18376 6y ago

i'm a little bit perturbed that the rationalist subculture might be seeing these mental states as desirable. the big problem, apart from the obvious issues with impulsive and reckless decision making, is delusional and bizarre thinking. full-grade mania can have full-grade psychosis, but even the "desirable" hypomania here can come with lesser forms of something obviously related. somebody might be a little too prone to see coincidences, to make unjustified inferences about other people's mental states, to perceive "messages from the universe", to perceive patterns and connections between unrelated things, to believe that they have the ability to somehow influence or foretell the future, etc. like euphoria, these are all pretty much harmless and common things in themselves. it seems to me that hypomania (and drugs, etc.) ramps them up in the same way it does euphoria, and as long as it doesn't go too far, it doesn't outright prevent people from functioning. i wonder whether it's even possible to separate the two -- i find "predictive processing" explanations of mania to be intuitively convincing, so it seems like euphoria and weird thinking might be connected in some way. i don't like the idea of the rationalist crowd, many of whom are smart, driven, and capable, and value clear thinking, getting into states of mind like this, especially since they tend to come with anosognosia. it doesn't seem good. Even if the goal is "wireheading done right" with some future technology such that problems can be avoided, the pattern with this subculture seems to be that some people will try to experiment with whatever closest equivalent is available now seriously underestimating risks. if you're thinking to yourself "how can I become hypomanic to make myself more productive and creative", please don't. (also, if rationalist types do start trying to make themselves hypomanic, one result might be that the AI/singularity/simulation stuff will turn into something that really is a religion.)

DenisM 6y ago
Risky behavior is an inalienable right much like riding a motorcycle or climbing rocks. There is more to life than longevity.

cc23 6y ago

This is article is borderline offensive for people that actually experience mania. The author cherry picks symptoms to say that chronic mania always feels good for the manic. This is definitely not the case for bipolar mania, and a quick Google search shows this is not the case for chronic mania. In fact, many chronic mania patients are characterized as dysphoric. Yes, mania feels good at times, really good, but at other times, it feels extremely uncomfortable. Your euphoric emotions can quickly turn to anger. Being aggressive usually has it's roots in some emotion that is not pleasant. Even just general speeding is not pleasant all of the time. Sure, there may be a few people who experience chronic mania in a way that doesn't ever feel bad for them. But most manic people experience negative subjective feelings from their mania at one point or another. To say that mania always feels good, and is a state to aspire to, is dangerous for people who actually do experience mania, and extremely tone deaf and out of touch for those who don't experience mania.

ditonal 6y ago
Thank you so much for saying this. Bipolar disorder is badly misunderstood by the general population, but one of the most common misconceptions is that mania is the opposite of depression and therefore good. For me, mania was hell on earth. The risk of self-harm is a lot higher in mania than depression and doctors are far more concerned with stopping mania than depression, to the extent they won’t treat depression if the risk of mania is too high. One source of this misconception is the stereotype of people creating art while manic (probably hypomanic). Another is that bipolar disorder is a big spectrum and many type 2 people having hypomania with some euphoric aspects. But I don’t think I’ve met anyone who isn’t type 1 or knows someone who is that has a good understanding that mania is very often a nightmare. After my last manic episode finished I pretty much laid in bed for 6 months doing nothing but fantasizing about killing myself and I’d much rather relive that then relive the mania that preceded it.
sgillen 6y ago
The author does pay some lip service to this: >>(Often in these case studies the euphoria is punctuated by irritability, but not sadness or depressed mood.) Now, most of the examples we know of these prolonged euphoric states are undesirable. They often come with reckless or harmful behavior, delusions, and cognitive impairment. But I agree, I think most of the manic episodes described should probably be called euphoric hypomania.

FrankyHollywood 6y ago

'The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck' is a good read in the same spectrum

maybe-idiot 6y ago

I’m surprised this article makes no mention of hypomania, which is close to mania but doesn’t cross the threshold. People can be hypomanic for years without rousing concern amongst friends, family, coworkers, medical staff.