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The incentive for you to share your beliefs is that if you will not lead, someone else, invariably less discerning, less principled, and less honest will. This

The incentive for you to share your beliefs is that if you will not lead, someone else, invariably less discerning, less principled, and less honest will. This used to be considered a fundamental precept of Western civilization and its legislators, popularly stated as "[t]hose who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who aren't." The historiography of this period, if humans remain extant, will discover the causal link between the rise of New Atheism and the rise of intellectual cowardice that by necessity emerged shortly after the implicit social norms of Christianity were intentionally jettisoned. Being willing to sacrifice, not to inflict violence but to actively suffer, for the truth that one witnesses is a fundamental predicate of Western civilization. Even the Christian heretics of the middle ages, willfully executed for their idiosyncratic beliefs, viewed this as a sacrosanct duty as a human being. If a polity actively consents to the silencing of the individual's ability to testify to their truth for the sake of Mammon, state persecution, the possibility of being stoned by a crowd of True Believers, or any other exercise of temporal power, civilization, that is the ability of a group of diverse individuals to exist for a future commonweal, is impossible to maintain. The honest and earnest among this and past generations have voluntarily silenced and removed themselves from the possibility of being spiritual and intellectual leaders. The only result that can come of this abdication of responsibility is not their own safety but the endangerment of everyone within that society. If you will not lead, you will be led by those that aren't so fearful, so future-minded, or scrupulous. If you would pretend to be blind, you will be led by the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

throwawydedbee 6y ago
It's one thing to choose to suffer. It's another thing entirely to ask your loved ones to suffer. The current cultural revolution we are living through is simply mowing people down, decent or not. Take a look at this letter from the MIT chaplain, who was fired for posting it. Although I am not religious, it is a simple statement of hard truths by an apparently decent man. There is simply nothing in here for a reasonable person to object to. https://newbostonpost.com/2020/06/19/heres-what-the-m-i-t-catholic-chaplain-got-fired-over/ https://newbostonpost.com/2020/06/19/heres-what-the-m-i-t-ca... It is a sort of suffering, but I no longer post on the Internet, even in places like HN. It's just too dangerous. There are a lot of smart people out there, and if they want to find you, they will. And as we're seeing, violence is not off the table.
- froasty 6y ago
  What was the crucible of Christianity? Caesar and Rome, the Pharisees and the Sanhedrin; an unreasonable man at the head of an unreasonable government, and unreasonable men at the head of an unreasonable assembly. The similarities are not coincidental. The martyrs of early Christianity are recognized as saints because they were decent people who were killed for no reason but their witnessing of truths others refused to publicly acknowledge--truths that rejected the false authority of both tribal religion and the state. You and your loved ones are going to suffer, regardless. If you will not take a stand for truth now, it will fall to your children or to the children of your loved ones.
  - throwawydedbee 6y ago
    I admire the saints, and in an abstract way, I admire you. But I also take the counsel of Ecclesiastes, which says in essence, nothing that you do will matter. The earth will turn, the rivers will run to the sea, and it will be that way forever and ever. Victory does not come to the righteous, but rather horrors come to us all without discrimination. Take what God has given for the moment, a few specks of relative happiness, and be happy with that. Jackboots of whatever flavor may be coming, but there is little we can do. Prepare as you can. I hear hoofbeats.
    - froasty 6y ago
      All that is coming is vanity. Rejoice, young man, in your youth, and let your heart do you good in the days of your youth. Walk in the ways of your heart and by the sight of your eyes, and know that for all these things God will bring you into judgment. Put away anger from your heart, and put away evil from your body, for youth and lack of understanding are vanity. Remember your creator in the days of your youth, before the days of trouble come and the years arrive in which you will say, “I have no wish for them.” Before the sun and the light and the moon and the stars are darkened and the clouds return after the rain; in the day when the guards of the house shake and the strong men are twisted, and the women who grind ceased working, because they are few, and those who look through the windows will be dimmed, and they will lock the doors in the market, because of the weakness of the sound of the woman who grinds, and one will rise up at the sound of the sparrow, and all the daughters of song will be brought low. Indeed, they will see from heights, and terrors will be in the road; when the almond tree blossoms, the grasshopper becomes fat, and the caper-berry is scattered, because mortals went to their eternal home, and the mourners circled in the market; before the cord of money is ruined and the blossom of gold is crushed and the pitcher is broken at the fountain and the wheel at the cistern races together and the dust returns to the earth as it was and the spirit returns to the God who gave it. Vanity of vanities, said the Ecclesiast; all is vanity. Beyond the fact that the Ecclesiast was wise, he also taught the people knowledge, and an ear will track out an arrangement of parables. The Ecclesiast sought many ways to find the words he wanted, even something written of straight forwardness, words of truth. The words of the wise are like ox-goads and like nails firmly planted; those from the collections were given from one shepherd and a surplus of them. My son, beware of making many books; there is no end, and much study is a wearying of the flesh. The end of the message; all is heard. Fear God, and keep his commandments, for this is every person. For God will bring every work in judgment, in everything overlooked, whether good or whether evil.
bovermyer 6y ago
Just because I do not broadcast my beliefs does not mean I do not act to preserve them. Do not mistake my subtlety for apathy.
meowface 6y ago
This seems like a conflation of Enlightenment values and fundamental humanistic values with Christian values, even if they may overlap in some cases; they may be mutually exclusive in other cases, depending on the sect. I see no throughline between the growth of any kind of atheism and intellectual cowardice, apathy, or rejection of relevant social norms. The rise of atheism, if anything, required considerable moral fortitude and conviction in the face of ostracization and worse, and this is still the case for many in America, even if attitudes are shifting. The cause is the same force that drove McCarthyism and other forms of tribalistic insanity. Blame humans, not individual human groups or ideologies. I have no problem with religion, but I strongly disagree with the notion that society is, as you suggest, necessarily held together by the social norms of a particular instantiation of organized religion. It's perpetration of the same ostensibly righteous style of judgment that this article seeks to criticize.
- froasty 6y ago
  Your post is, in all effects, a recapitulation of the precise juncture and jettison of which I was speaking. That you strongly disagree with my post, all I can say in response is e pur si muove.
  - meowface 6y ago
    I agree with your post; just not the theistic spin on it. I think you got the symptoms right but the cause wrong. Not because I'm anti-theistic, but because I just don't think it's the binding fabric holding society together and which society becomes lost without, even if it may have cynically and pragmatically served such a purpose in more chaotic times of the past. I believe in social norms for the inherent sake of the norms, rather than due to doctrine. I jettison no norms - only doctrine. Philosophical systems are orthogonal to theological ones. If there exist implicit beneficial norms associated with Christianity, as you say, then I posit their implicitness implies they can be disentangled from theistic ideology and the case can (and perhaps should) be made for them outside of such systems.
    - froasty 6y ago
espCrunch 6y ago
Really? The same christianity which condones slavery, mistreatment of women and homosexuals? Good riddance. There are very good reasons religiosity is dying in the west, and there’s nothing anyone can do about it.

throwawydedbee 6y ago

It's one thing to choose to suffer. It's another thing entirely to ask your loved ones to suffer. The current cultural revolution we are living through is simply mowing people down, decent or not. Take a look at this letter from the MIT chaplain, who was fired for posting it. Although I am not religious, it is a simple statement of hard truths by an apparently decent man. There is simply nothing in here for a reasonable person to object to. https://newbostonpost.com/2020/06/19/heres-what-the-m-i-t-catholic-chaplain-got-fired-over/ https://newbostonpost.com/2020/06/19/heres-what-the-m-i-t-ca... It is a sort of suffering, but I no longer post on the Internet, even in places like HN. It's just too dangerous. There are a lot of smart people out there, and if they want to find you, they will. And as we're seeing, violence is not off the table.

froasty 6y ago
What was the crucible of Christianity? Caesar and Rome, the Pharisees and the Sanhedrin; an unreasonable man at the head of an unreasonable government, and unreasonable men at the head of an unreasonable assembly. The similarities are not coincidental. The martyrs of early Christianity are recognized as saints because they were decent people who were killed for no reason but their witnessing of truths others refused to publicly acknowledge--truths that rejected the false authority of both tribal religion and the state. You and your loved ones are going to suffer, regardless. If you will not take a stand for truth now, it will fall to your children or to the children of your loved ones.
- throwawydedbee 6y ago
  I admire the saints, and in an abstract way, I admire you. But I also take the counsel of Ecclesiastes, which says in essence, nothing that you do will matter. The earth will turn, the rivers will run to the sea, and it will be that way forever and ever. Victory does not come to the righteous, but rather horrors come to us all without discrimination. Take what God has given for the moment, a few specks of relative happiness, and be happy with that. Jackboots of whatever flavor may be coming, but there is little we can do. Prepare as you can. I hear hoofbeats.
  - froasty 6y ago
    All that is coming is vanity. Rejoice, young man, in your youth, and let your heart do you good in the days of your youth. Walk in the ways of your heart and by the sight of your eyes, and know that for all these things God will bring you into judgment. Put away anger from your heart, and put away evil from your body, for youth and lack of understanding are vanity. Remember your creator in the days of your youth, before the days of trouble come and the years arrive in which you will say, “I have no wish for them.” Before the sun and the light and the moon and the stars are darkened and the clouds return after the rain; in the day when the guards of the house shake and the strong men are twisted, and the women who grind ceased working, because they are few, and those who look through the windows will be dimmed, and they will lock the doors in the market, because of the weakness of the sound of the woman who grinds, and one will rise up at the sound of the sparrow, and all the daughters of song will be brought low. Indeed, they will see from heights, and terrors will be in the road; when the almond tree blossoms, the grasshopper becomes fat, and the caper-berry is scattered, because mortals went to their eternal home, and the mourners circled in the market; before the cord of money is ruined and the blossom of gold is crushed and the pitcher is broken at the fountain and the wheel at the cistern races together and the dust returns to the earth as it was and the spirit returns to the God who gave it. Vanity of vanities, said the Ecclesiast; all is vanity. Beyond the fact that the Ecclesiast was wise, he also taught the people knowledge, and an ear will track out an arrangement of parables. The Ecclesiast sought many ways to find the words he wanted, even something written of straight forwardness, words of truth. The words of the wise are like ox-goads and like nails firmly planted; those from the collections were given from one shepherd and a surplus of them. My son, beware of making many books; there is no end, and much study is a wearying of the flesh. The end of the message; all is heard. Fear God, and keep his commandments, for this is every person. For God will bring every work in judgment, in everything overlooked, whether good or whether evil.

bovermyer 6y ago

Just because I do not broadcast my beliefs does not mean I do not act to preserve them. Do not mistake my subtlety for apathy.

meowface 6y ago

This seems like a conflation of Enlightenment values and fundamental humanistic values with Christian values, even if they may overlap in some cases; they may be mutually exclusive in other cases, depending on the sect. I see no throughline between the growth of any kind of atheism and intellectual cowardice, apathy, or rejection of relevant social norms. The rise of atheism, if anything, required considerable moral fortitude and conviction in the face of ostracization and worse, and this is still the case for many in America, even if attitudes are shifting. The cause is the same force that drove McCarthyism and other forms of tribalistic insanity. Blame humans, not individual human groups or ideologies. I have no problem with religion, but I strongly disagree with the notion that society is, as you suggest, necessarily held together by the social norms of a particular instantiation of organized religion. It's perpetration of the same ostensibly righteous style of judgment that this article seeks to criticize.

froasty 6y ago
Your post is, in all effects, a recapitulation of the precise juncture and jettison of which I was speaking. That you strongly disagree with my post, all I can say in response is e pur si muove.
- meowface 6y ago
  I agree with your post; just not the theistic spin on it. I think you got the symptoms right but the cause wrong. Not because I'm anti-theistic, but because I just don't think it's the binding fabric holding society together and which society becomes lost without, even if it may have cynically and pragmatically served such a purpose in more chaotic times of the past. I believe in social norms for the inherent sake of the norms, rather than due to doctrine. I jettison no norms - only doctrine. Philosophical systems are orthogonal to theological ones. If there exist implicit beneficial norms associated with Christianity, as you say, then I posit their implicitness implies they can be disentangled from theistic ideology and the case can (and perhaps should) be made for them outside of such systems.
  - froasty 6y ago

espCrunch 6y ago

Really? The same christianity which condones slavery, mistreatment of women and homosexuals? Good riddance. There are very good reasons religiosity is dying in the west, and there’s nothing anyone can do about it.