5 ms·

Careful... under the new HK security laws, you might be at risk for financially supporting or abetting someone involved in secessionist activities! (kidding, b

Careful... under the new HK security laws, you might be at risk for financially supporting or abetting someone involved in secessionist activities! (kidding, but not completely -- read Article 21: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Law_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China_on_Safeguarding_National_Security_in_the_Hong_Kong_Special_Administrative_Region https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Law_of_the_People%27s_Republi...)

keiferski 6y ago
Wong actually explicitly says he is against secession in the book, but I doubt that detail is relevant for a motivated prosecutor.
- BelleOfTheBall 6y ago
  What is his plan for Hong Kong moving forward? I'd be interested to see what a local activist thinks could be a solution to their "China problem", especially considering that a country as big and powerful isn't going to simply back off. His fight is a tough one and I have great respect for a person so young to commit to it so fully.
  - keiferski 6y ago
    The book came out in February but at the moment he seems to be running for the legislature. His overall strategy seems to be to drum up international support for HK democracy, which will then (in theory) pressure the CCP. He intends to run in a primary for the pro-democracy camp that will choose candidates for the Legislative Council vote on Sept. 6. "If more people vote for us ... it could generate more pressure and more hesitation for Beijing," Wong said, in front of campaign posters with the slogan "Ballot, or bullet." Wong has said he supports the idea of a non-binding referendum for people to have a say over Hong Kong’s future but that he is against independence. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-protests-joshua-wong/activist-joshua-wong-says-he-plans-to-run-for-hong-kong-legislature-idUSKBN23Q1RK https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-protests-joshua-...
    - saeranv 6y ago
      I am so impressed by these activists but at the same time feel so demoralized. The CCP has consistently acted with great hostility and any attempt to change the system through existing political mechanisms, protests, and civil disobedience. And our global institutions have been seriously weakened by the election of various far-right, nationalist politicians who have no interest in, or are actively hostile towards promoting civil liberties and liberalism. What other options do these activists have? Violence?
      - supernova87a 6y ago
        But let me play a moderate and ask you: Are you an HK secessionist or merely seeking to delay / live out what was promised? I.e., are you merely advocating for Hong Kong to peacefully continue the rest of its 20 years before full handover to China, under the system they've been used to? This is what was promised -- and you don't want China to prematurely erode HK's civil liberties? Or are you seeking Hong Kong's independence, and a nullification of the treaty that was agreed to? Because if you agree that the territory belongs to China, then we're just unhappy about it coming sooner than expected, right? It eventually would revert to China and have all the infringement of rights, which are now just being experienced sooner.
        saeranv 6y ago
        This is a good point. I feel like I have a somewhat unsatisfying answer to this, which is that I am approaching this from a first-principles reasoning of ethical value, which logically leads to the arguing for secession. Specifically, since I consider the preservation of civil liberties as a foundational ethical value, I consider the broad infringement of it, whether now or in the future is fundamentally unethical. From that perspective I consider both cases unethical, and that places me as in the secessionist category, even though that would mean violating the treaty. One could argue that from a utilitarian perspective, (that places overall societal utility over individual liberty), that China is acting consistently within it's own interpretation of utilitarian ethics. The CCP could argue that maximizing ethical value necessitates both infringing on civil liberties, and violating the treaty. They could even plausibly point towards their radical success in reducing poverty, and leadership on climate change as an example of the superiority of their system. However, the (ongoing) genocide of Uighurs should clearly illustrate the flaws in this system.
  - dumb1224 6y ago
    A HK friend of mine who's strongly opposing CCP told me independence isn't what most HK citizens want (a hoax even quoting his words). It was a merely a weaponised piece of propaganda by the CCP mouthpieces. By now I can't tell whether he's right or not only from reading main stream media articles. Also curious to learn what will be the ultimate goal.
    - ksec 6y ago
      It started as a hoax, because people naively believe the sanity of CCP or HK Government to even act with any decency. The sentiment gradually shifted, because they lost whatever hope or trust that is left with the government. It is still not a mainstream view, but it isn't so much a "hoax" like it was same time last year.
      - dumb1224 6y ago
        Any links to the origin of these movements? Personally it seems a very bizarre strategy to use independence to bargain (it will for sure provoke rather than evoking 'decency'). Any chinese would agree I think. I lived in Ireland for nearly a decade and the wounds of the Trouble never heal between the very Irish people. And Ireland is way more democratic and tolerant than China.
    - throw443563 6y ago
      The problem is the protesters were waving UK flags. Can you imagine if the protesters in Kashmir were waving UK flags?
      - dumb1224 6y ago
        People are emotional and ideological with these matters. I don't think it's HK people's fault. However I do think understanding and communication is the key. Waging wars on ideological differences is toxic and hiding real issues. E.g a lot of sensible conversation has been drowned in the noise of social media.
- dirtyid 6y ago
  TBH Wong's never going to get a chance to run, I doubt he's even allowed to leave the country after the security laws. The dude testified on the US congress to advocate against Chinese interests - aka treason - he's going to be the first on the chopping block when opportunity arises.
ngcc_hk 6y ago
Yes and probably anything they thought is wrong is subject to their law. Self censorship and afraid of them is what they want. Gradually one may even internalise that and report one’s neigbhour even. From free to slave, from Hk to mainland, from anti- to love of your master. That is how they want Hk becomes. It is not because we see any hope we fight. Be water, my friend.

keiferski 6y ago

Wong actually explicitly says he is against secession in the book, but I doubt that detail is relevant for a motivated prosecutor.

BelleOfTheBall 6y ago
What is his plan for Hong Kong moving forward? I'd be interested to see what a local activist thinks could be a solution to their "China problem", especially considering that a country as big and powerful isn't going to simply back off. His fight is a tough one and I have great respect for a person so young to commit to it so fully.
- keiferski 6y ago
  The book came out in February but at the moment he seems to be running for the legislature. His overall strategy seems to be to drum up international support for HK democracy, which will then (in theory) pressure the CCP. He intends to run in a primary for the pro-democracy camp that will choose candidates for the Legislative Council vote on Sept. 6. "If more people vote for us ... it could generate more pressure and more hesitation for Beijing," Wong said, in front of campaign posters with the slogan "Ballot, or bullet." Wong has said he supports the idea of a non-binding referendum for people to have a say over Hong Kong’s future but that he is against independence. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-protests-joshua-wong/activist-joshua-wong-says-he-plans-to-run-for-hong-kong-legislature-idUSKBN23Q1RK https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-protests-joshua-...
  - saeranv 6y ago
    I am so impressed by these activists but at the same time feel so demoralized. The CCP has consistently acted with great hostility and any attempt to change the system through existing political mechanisms, protests, and civil disobedience. And our global institutions have been seriously weakened by the election of various far-right, nationalist politicians who have no interest in, or are actively hostile towards promoting civil liberties and liberalism. What other options do these activists have? Violence?
    - supernova87a 6y ago
      But let me play a moderate and ask you: Are you an HK secessionist or merely seeking to delay / live out what was promised? I.e., are you merely advocating for Hong Kong to peacefully continue the rest of its 20 years before full handover to China, under the system they've been used to? This is what was promised -- and you don't want China to prematurely erode HK's civil liberties? Or are you seeking Hong Kong's independence, and a nullification of the treaty that was agreed to? Because if you agree that the territory belongs to China, then we're just unhappy about it coming sooner than expected, right? It eventually would revert to China and have all the infringement of rights, which are now just being experienced sooner.
      - saeranv 6y ago
        This is a good point. I feel like I have a somewhat unsatisfying answer to this, which is that I am approaching this from a first-principles reasoning of ethical value, which logically leads to the arguing for secession. Specifically, since I consider the preservation of civil liberties as a foundational ethical value, I consider the broad infringement of it, whether now or in the future is fundamentally unethical. From that perspective I consider both cases unethical, and that places me as in the secessionist category, even though that would mean violating the treaty. One could argue that from a utilitarian perspective, (that places overall societal utility over individual liberty), that China is acting consistently within it's own interpretation of utilitarian ethics. The CCP could argue that maximizing ethical value necessitates both infringing on civil liberties, and violating the treaty. They could even plausibly point towards their radical success in reducing poverty, and leadership on climate change as an example of the superiority of their system. However, the (ongoing) genocide of Uighurs should clearly illustrate the flaws in this system.
- dumb1224 6y ago
  A HK friend of mine who's strongly opposing CCP told me independence isn't what most HK citizens want (a hoax even quoting his words). It was a merely a weaponised piece of propaganda by the CCP mouthpieces. By now I can't tell whether he's right or not only from reading main stream media articles. Also curious to learn what will be the ultimate goal.
  - ksec 6y ago
    It started as a hoax, because people naively believe the sanity of CCP or HK Government to even act with any decency. The sentiment gradually shifted, because they lost whatever hope or trust that is left with the government. It is still not a mainstream view, but it isn't so much a "hoax" like it was same time last year.
    - dumb1224 6y ago
      Any links to the origin of these movements? Personally it seems a very bizarre strategy to use independence to bargain (it will for sure provoke rather than evoking 'decency'). Any chinese would agree I think. I lived in Ireland for nearly a decade and the wounds of the Trouble never heal between the very Irish people. And Ireland is way more democratic and tolerant than China.
  - throw443563 6y ago
    The problem is the protesters were waving UK flags. Can you imagine if the protesters in Kashmir were waving UK flags?
    - dumb1224 6y ago
      People are emotional and ideological with these matters. I don't think it's HK people's fault. However I do think understanding and communication is the key. Waging wars on ideological differences is toxic and hiding real issues. E.g a lot of sensible conversation has been drowned in the noise of social media.
dirtyid 6y ago
TBH Wong's never going to get a chance to run, I doubt he's even allowed to leave the country after the security laws. The dude testified on the US congress to advocate against Chinese interests - aka treason - he's going to be the first on the chopping block when opportunity arises.

ngcc_hk 6y ago

Yes and probably anything they thought is wrong is subject to their law. Self censorship and afraid of them is what they want. Gradually one may even internalise that and report one’s neigbhour even. From free to slave, from Hk to mainland, from anti- to love of your master. That is how they want Hk becomes. It is not because we see any hope we fight. Be water, my friend.