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"McCarthy had, in fact, no such list. He did not have even a single name." The FBI Venona project (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venona_project https://en.wiki

"McCarthy had, in fact, no such list. He did not have even a single name." The FBI Venona project (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venona_project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venona_project) detected a significant number of Soviet spies operating in the US during the "McCarthy period." After the fall of the Berlin Wall a number of documents were recovered from the East Germany that substantiated the FBI work. Senator (D) Daniel Patrick Moynihan wrote about this in detail in "Secrecy" https://www.amazon.com/Secrecy-Experience-Daniel-Patrick-Moynihan/dp/0300080794 https://www.amazon.com/Secrecy-Experience-Daniel-Patrick-Moy... (See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moynihan_Commission_on_Government_Secrecy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moynihan_Commission_on_Governm... for context)

ChomskyNormal4m 6y ago
Venona data collection stopped in 1945 (although analysis did not), and McCarthy was not in Washington until 1947, so no, Venona was not detecting Soviet spies during the McCarthy era. Also, these cables sent from Soviet diplomats contained many names one would expect on diplomatic cables, including FDR, who no one serious has ever accused of espionage. This includes people embassy and consular officials met with. Subsequently, everyone mentioned in the cables some have said are spies, with not much evidence of this. FDR was mentioned, is he a spy too?
- skmurphy 6y ago
  I am not sure your timeline is correct. For example, https://www.nsa.gov/news-features/declassified-documents/venona/ https://www.nsa.gov/news-features/declassified-documents/ven... implies US counter-intelligence efforts against Soviets under the Venona project continued until 1980. There were and are doubtless other counterinteligence efforts that ran in parallel and continue to this day. Moynihan's "Secrecy" book explores in detail how intelligence information gets politicized and suggests some policies to minimize that. Using secrets for political ends no doubt occurred and continues to occur and is not limited to any particular party or government department. My point was that there is strong evidence for significant Soviet espionage activity, which the article implies was not the case.
  - ChomskyNormal4m 6y ago
    As I said - Venona data collection stopped in 1945 (although analysis did not). The analysis efforts were what was wrapped up in 1980. Insofar as other efforts, there was wiretapping in Berlin ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gold https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gold ), undersea cable tapping ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ivy_Bells https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ivy_Bells ), the Gamma Gupy monitoring of Soviet leaders car phones etc.
- etrabroline 6y ago
  Here are the 10 soviet assets named in the soviet cables McCarthy correctly accused of being communists: Solomon Adler: Official in the US Treasury Department, Cedric Belfrage: American Office of Strategic Services ,(predecessor to the CIA) T. A. Bisson: US Army Board of Economic Warfare, V. Frank Coe: Official at the US Treasury Department, Lauchlin Currie: Executive assistant to President Roosevelt, Harold Glasser: Official at the US Treasury Department, David Karr: Journalist, Mary Jane Keeney: US Army Board of Economic Warfare, Leonard mins: American Office of Strategic Services (OSS), Franz Neumann: Frankfurt school, OSS agent, and State Department official These individuals knowingly provided intelligence to the USSR or as US government officials directed US policy in ways favorable to the Soviet Union at the direction of the KGB. They all continued their activity long past 1945, most into and after the McCarthy era. > Marquis has established friendly relations with T. A Bisson (hereafter Arthur) who has recently left Board of Economic Warfare; [...] Arthur passed to marquis [...] copies of four documents: (a) his own report for BEW with his views on working out a plan for shipment of American troops to China; (b) a report by the Chinese embassy in Washington to its government in China [...] (c) a brief report of April 1934 on a general evaluation of the forces on the sides of the Soviet-German from [...] (d) a report by the American consul in Vladivostok [...] Venona: Soviet Espionage and the American Response, 1939-1957, page 229. These people are not just "named", they were passing sensitive government documents to Soviet agents and a lot more.
Nasrudith 6y ago
I don't quite get why people are still trying to rehabilitate McCarthy by the fact there were actual soviet spies. That he couldn't find the real ones with his witchhunt makes matters worse not better. The only reason I can think of is a bit negative of "they not-so-secretly want another witchhunt akin to Holocaust deniers".
- skmurphy 6y ago
  My goal was not to rehabilitate McCarthy or give aid and comfort to Holocaust deniers but to point out that there was a lot of Soviet espionage activity, which the article implies was not the case. I strongly encourage you to read Patrick Moynihan's "Secrecy" book for a nuanced view of the policy challenges of managing secrets, diplomacy, and counter-intelligence in a way that preserves democracy.

ChomskyNormal4m 6y ago

Venona data collection stopped in 1945 (although analysis did not), and McCarthy was not in Washington until 1947, so no, Venona was not detecting Soviet spies during the McCarthy era. Also, these cables sent from Soviet diplomats contained many names one would expect on diplomatic cables, including FDR, who no one serious has ever accused of espionage. This includes people embassy and consular officials met with. Subsequently, everyone mentioned in the cables some have said are spies, with not much evidence of this. FDR was mentioned, is he a spy too?

skmurphy 6y ago
I am not sure your timeline is correct. For example, https://www.nsa.gov/news-features/declassified-documents/venona/ https://www.nsa.gov/news-features/declassified-documents/ven... implies US counter-intelligence efforts against Soviets under the Venona project continued until 1980. There were and are doubtless other counterinteligence efforts that ran in parallel and continue to this day. Moynihan's "Secrecy" book explores in detail how intelligence information gets politicized and suggests some policies to minimize that. Using secrets for political ends no doubt occurred and continues to occur and is not limited to any particular party or government department. My point was that there is strong evidence for significant Soviet espionage activity, which the article implies was not the case.
- ChomskyNormal4m 6y ago
  As I said - Venona data collection stopped in 1945 (although analysis did not). The analysis efforts were what was wrapped up in 1980. Insofar as other efforts, there was wiretapping in Berlin ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gold https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gold ), undersea cable tapping ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ivy_Bells https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ivy_Bells ), the Gamma Gupy monitoring of Soviet leaders car phones etc.
etrabroline 6y ago
Here are the 10 soviet assets named in the soviet cables McCarthy correctly accused of being communists: Solomon Adler: Official in the US Treasury Department, Cedric Belfrage: American Office of Strategic Services ,(predecessor to the CIA) T. A. Bisson: US Army Board of Economic Warfare, V. Frank Coe: Official at the US Treasury Department, Lauchlin Currie: Executive assistant to President Roosevelt, Harold Glasser: Official at the US Treasury Department, David Karr: Journalist, Mary Jane Keeney: US Army Board of Economic Warfare, Leonard mins: American Office of Strategic Services (OSS), Franz Neumann: Frankfurt school, OSS agent, and State Department official These individuals knowingly provided intelligence to the USSR or as US government officials directed US policy in ways favorable to the Soviet Union at the direction of the KGB. They all continued their activity long past 1945, most into and after the McCarthy era. > Marquis has established friendly relations with T. A Bisson (hereafter Arthur) who has recently left Board of Economic Warfare; [...] Arthur passed to marquis [...] copies of four documents: (a) his own report for BEW with his views on working out a plan for shipment of American troops to China; (b) a report by the Chinese embassy in Washington to its government in China [...] (c) a brief report of April 1934 on a general evaluation of the forces on the sides of the Soviet-German from [...] (d) a report by the American consul in Vladivostok [...] Venona: Soviet Espionage and the American Response, 1939-1957, page 229. These people are not just "named", they were passing sensitive government documents to Soviet agents and a lot more.

Nasrudith 6y ago

I don't quite get why people are still trying to rehabilitate McCarthy by the fact there were actual soviet spies. That he couldn't find the real ones with his witchhunt makes matters worse not better. The only reason I can think of is a bit negative of "they not-so-secretly want another witchhunt akin to Holocaust deniers".

skmurphy 6y ago
My goal was not to rehabilitate McCarthy or give aid and comfort to Holocaust deniers but to point out that there was a lot of Soviet espionage activity, which the article implies was not the case. I strongly encourage you to read Patrick Moynihan's "Secrecy" book for a nuanced view of the policy challenges of managing secrets, diplomacy, and counter-intelligence in a way that preserves democracy.