7 ms·

The degree of entitlement among new grads in the software development industry is incredible. I know because I've been there. Now I see it from the other side a

The degree of entitlement among new grads in the software development industry is incredible. I know because I've been there. Now I see it from the other side as an employer, and when I think of the way I acted after I graduated, I want to go back and kick myself. In retrospect, this was a sign of immaturity and self-aggrandizing. I genuinely believed at the time that Emacs and Linux and Common Lisp somehow made me special, when in reality I just wanted to convince myself that I was a better developer than my peers. I wasn't. I was a good coder, but I was immature, wasted a ton of people's time, and refused to listen to people who wrote code that solved real problems while I was on my "let's switch to Linux and Lisp" crusade. I can point out a ton of examples where Windows is significantly better than Linux and vice versa. Same goes for most programming languages, development environments, and software methodologies. Saying "I like UNIX more and prefer to develop in it" is one thing. Saying that a choice of the OS tells me something about an organization and that their particular system of choice is somehow based on worse philosophical principles than my alternative is naive and condescending beyond belief. The rule of thumb is to understand before you decide you've understood. If we used this principle more often, the industry overall would be a much more nourishing environment to work in.

dasil003 16y ago
On the other hand, for a while it seemed that more often than not an idealistic stand against Windows was the only viable type, and I daresay we're all better off for those who took it.
- davidw 16y ago
  I've been using Linux since I started developing professionally, in 1997, and for the things I've worked on (mostly the web), it's always been a valid alternative.
  - rbanffy 16y ago
    I moved over from Windows to Linux in mid 2003. For me, it has not only been a valid alternative, but a superior one.
  - apenwarr 16y ago
    Sure, for some things. But it wasn't a valid alternative before a bunch of people decided to spend an awful lot of time making it, despite the unlikeliness of it ever being a real competitor to DOS. And years before that even, the GNU project was powered almost entirely by idealists (albeit the kind of idealists who actually ship code). Rewriting Unix from scratch for free? That sure sounded crazy at the time.
    - davidw 16y ago
      Without a doubt. I was just saying that it's been a fairly viable system for a while.
beambot 16y ago
The article does not rip on Windows. It implies that OS / language choice says something about an organization's developer culture. I share this belief, and it would be an important job criteria for me as well. Consider three choices: (1) Big company X on Windows + .Net, (2) Big Company Y on Linux + C++, or (3) co-founding a new startup using whatever I prefer. I wouldn't fault anyone for having pre-conceived notions about the cultures prominent at these companies, would you?
- munificent 16y ago
  Yes, I would.
  - tomjen3 16y ago
    Why?
- dangero 16y ago
  I agree, but I think writing that in a long email where you bold that sentence is pretty condescending. I think that's the main issue people are taking with it. If you want to engage in a discussion about cultures and platforms, I think that's a valid discussion, but this email was not the place to do it.
  - marcomonteiro 16y ago
    Actually considering he was asked WHY he didn't choose them it was the perfect place for it. The fact that he bolded that line only served to highlight his real and only true objection --- the development environment. Everything else he addressed was secondary and he would have probably taken the job even with all those other points. After the interview it really doesn't matter much what the interviewing process was like, but the development environment is something that will be with him everyday. His whole email could have been summed up as "you're on Windows, I don't do Windows". That's not condescending, that's his preference and HIS reason for not taking the job.
    - 16y ago
iamdave 16y ago
The rule of thumb is to understand before you decide you've understood. Yeah, no. The rule of thumb ought to be find your own path, go with what works for you and forget everyone else's establishments. Clearly this guy saw a job with a culture and environment that he got a good vibe from, he liked their approach, he liked their people, he chose them. On the flip side, I personally don't know where this attitude comes from that the younger generations should have to toil and sweat and bleed before they get that opportunity engage in something that clicks with them. Life is short, but JUST long enough to get those experiences in whatever way they come along in our lives. Personally, I'm just as sick of old curmudgeons coming along dictating to young people how they should run a career just because said old fogie had to go in a different direction just to get his in the world as you are with recent grad students and their "entitlement".
- barista 16y ago
  Not toil and sweat but as a fresh graduate do you really have enough experience to make decision about culture? And that too based only on a couple of interviewers? Not working on windows because you don't agree with its design philosophies is ridiculous. It's not that you are working on building windows. It's just a platform. You select the tool that works best to get the job done. Not because you agree with the tools philosophy. If I got such a letter I'd actually retract offer to this candidate. Flexibility and eagerness to take on challenges and learn goes a long way in your initial days as a developer. Lacking these qualities is a big no-go for me at least.
  - tomjen3 16y ago
    >Flexibility and eagerness to take on challenges and learn You are right in principle, but to you these things mean "compromising on what I want to do to please the corp", Eagerness means "I don't care whether I do something that I want, I will be happy to do whether they will let me", learning means "Accepting the decree I am given as the right thing". All of these are horrible, grotesque deformations which caries just enough of the original truth to work as sound-bites but will wreak the life of those who labor under them.
  - 16y ago
jrockway 16y ago
What's great about the programming industry is that demand for good programmers is higher than the supply of good programmers, so if you're a good programmer people have no choice but to make you feel special for liking Emacs and Common Lisp. If you don't want to work for a Windows shop simply because you hate the default desktop background, that's their problem and not yours. You have a job, they don't have a developer. You win, they lose. That's what's great about being a person instead of a computer program. You don't have to be rational!
- gaius 16y ago
  Except that this isn't true. Look, despite what we do all day at first glance, no-one gets paid to "write programs". You get paid to solve other people's problems, it just happens to be with code - it doesn't matter how hardcore you are, that's what you do. The guys working on compilers are solving the problems of the guys who need optimized code, and they're solving the problems of people who want to simulate cars in wind tunnels (or whatever) and they're solving the problems of people who want to save fuel... And so it goes. Part of actually doing that is that you have to be able to work with a team, and you have to write code that anyone in the team can pick up, and the organization has to be comfortable that if you get hit by a bus (or throw a strop over emacs vs vi) they can get someone to build on what you've done on behalf if their customers. Sure Emacs and Lisp are great - but are they the right tool for every problem? Of course not. This is what we mean when we say new grads have no experience. Sure you might have written a load of code, but it's the "solving other people's problems" bit that is true experience. By all means be a prima donna - but remember that real artists ship.
  - jerhewet 16y ago
    > By all means be a prima donna - but remember that real artists ship. Spot on. And, if I can add another aphorism, real programmers finish what they start.
hernan7 16y ago
"In retrospect, this was a sign of immaturity and self-aggrandizing." Or maybe it's your current self-aggrandizing now that you were given a smidgen of power.
jobeirne 16y ago
I wasn't aware that acting on preferences and then articulating them when prompted counts as a sense of entitlement. You must get angry a lot.

dasil003 16y ago

On the other hand, for a while it seemed that more often than not an idealistic stand against Windows was the only viable type, and I daresay we're all better off for those who took it.

davidw 16y ago
I've been using Linux since I started developing professionally, in 1997, and for the things I've worked on (mostly the web), it's always been a valid alternative.
- rbanffy 16y ago
  I moved over from Windows to Linux in mid 2003. For me, it has not only been a valid alternative, but a superior one.
- apenwarr 16y ago
  Sure, for some things. But it wasn't a valid alternative before a bunch of people decided to spend an awful lot of time making it, despite the unlikeliness of it ever being a real competitor to DOS. And years before that even, the GNU project was powered almost entirely by idealists (albeit the kind of idealists who actually ship code). Rewriting Unix from scratch for free? That sure sounded crazy at the time.
  - davidw 16y ago
    Without a doubt. I was just saying that it's been a fairly viable system for a while.

beambot 16y ago

The article does not rip on Windows. It implies that OS / language choice says something about an organization's developer culture. I share this belief, and it would be an important job criteria for me as well. Consider three choices: (1) Big company X on Windows + .Net, (2) Big Company Y on Linux + C++, or (3) co-founding a new startup using whatever I prefer. I wouldn't fault anyone for having pre-conceived notions about the cultures prominent at these companies, would you?

munificent 16y ago
Yes, I would.
- tomjen3 16y ago
  Why?
dangero 16y ago
I agree, but I think writing that in a long email where you bold that sentence is pretty condescending. I think that's the main issue people are taking with it. If you want to engage in a discussion about cultures and platforms, I think that's a valid discussion, but this email was not the place to do it.
- marcomonteiro 16y ago
  Actually considering he was asked WHY he didn't choose them it was the perfect place for it. The fact that he bolded that line only served to highlight his real and only true objection --- the development environment. Everything else he addressed was secondary and he would have probably taken the job even with all those other points. After the interview it really doesn't matter much what the interviewing process was like, but the development environment is something that will be with him everyday. His whole email could have been summed up as "you're on Windows, I don't do Windows". That's not condescending, that's his preference and HIS reason for not taking the job.
  - 16y ago

iamdave 16y ago

The rule of thumb is to understand before you decide you've understood. Yeah, no. The rule of thumb ought to be find your own path, go with what works for you and forget everyone else's establishments. Clearly this guy saw a job with a culture and environment that he got a good vibe from, he liked their approach, he liked their people, he chose them. On the flip side, I personally don't know where this attitude comes from that the younger generations should have to toil and sweat and bleed before they get that opportunity engage in something that clicks with them. Life is short, but JUST long enough to get those experiences in whatever way they come along in our lives. Personally, I'm just as sick of old curmudgeons coming along dictating to young people how they should run a career just because said old fogie had to go in a different direction just to get his in the world as you are with recent grad students and their "entitlement".

barista 16y ago
Not toil and sweat but as a fresh graduate do you really have enough experience to make decision about culture? And that too based only on a couple of interviewers? Not working on windows because you don't agree with its design philosophies is ridiculous. It's not that you are working on building windows. It's just a platform. You select the tool that works best to get the job done. Not because you agree with the tools philosophy. If I got such a letter I'd actually retract offer to this candidate. Flexibility and eagerness to take on challenges and learn goes a long way in your initial days as a developer. Lacking these qualities is a big no-go for me at least.
- tomjen3 16y ago
  >Flexibility and eagerness to take on challenges and learn You are right in principle, but to you these things mean "compromising on what I want to do to please the corp", Eagerness means "I don't care whether I do something that I want, I will be happy to do whether they will let me", learning means "Accepting the decree I am given as the right thing". All of these are horrible, grotesque deformations which caries just enough of the original truth to work as sound-bites but will wreak the life of those who labor under them.
- 16y ago

jrockway 16y ago

What's great about the programming industry is that demand for good programmers is higher than the supply of good programmers, so if you're a good programmer people have no choice but to make you feel special for liking Emacs and Common Lisp. If you don't want to work for a Windows shop simply because you hate the default desktop background, that's their problem and not yours. You have a job, they don't have a developer. You win, they lose. That's what's great about being a person instead of a computer program. You don't have to be rational!

gaius 16y ago
Except that this isn't true. Look, despite what we do all day at first glance, no-one gets paid to "write programs". You get paid to solve other people's problems, it just happens to be with code - it doesn't matter how hardcore you are, that's what you do. The guys working on compilers are solving the problems of the guys who need optimized code, and they're solving the problems of people who want to simulate cars in wind tunnels (or whatever) and they're solving the problems of people who want to save fuel... And so it goes. Part of actually doing that is that you have to be able to work with a team, and you have to write code that anyone in the team can pick up, and the organization has to be comfortable that if you get hit by a bus (or throw a strop over emacs vs vi) they can get someone to build on what you've done on behalf if their customers. Sure Emacs and Lisp are great - but are they the right tool for every problem? Of course not. This is what we mean when we say new grads have no experience. Sure you might have written a load of code, but it's the "solving other people's problems" bit that is true experience. By all means be a prima donna - but remember that real artists ship.
- jerhewet 16y ago
  > By all means be a prima donna - but remember that real artists ship. Spot on. And, if I can add another aphorism, real programmers finish what they start.

hernan7 16y ago

"In retrospect, this was a sign of immaturity and self-aggrandizing." Or maybe it's your current self-aggrandizing now that you were given a smidgen of power.

jobeirne 16y ago

I wasn't aware that acting on preferences and then articulating them when prompted counts as a sense of entitlement. You must get angry a lot.