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...or the signatures are fake? Petition fraud. Happens in US too, see net neutrality.

by jakear 6y ago

FooBarWidget 6y ago
Well I did say that 3M is likely to be an overestimation. How many do you believe are fake? Let's say 40% are fake. That puts the number of legit signatures at 1.6M: still in the same ballpark as the number of protesters, which shows that society is divided. If you disagree with this analysis, I would love to hear why.
- vehementi 6y ago
  40% is the conservative estimate number the the US government faked for the net neutrality thing and that's with transparency in the comments. Let's go with 99% for China?
  - FooBarWidget 6y ago
    There was a local district election in November, in which the pro-Democracy party won. Do you believe that those election results are real or not?
- nitrogen 6y ago
  A petition is a much lower effort action than a protest. People motivated enough to protest in person probably represent a stronger opinion base than people merely motivated enough to sign a petition.
  - FooBarWidget 6y ago
    That's generally true. In this case, it's a petition about a national security law, so does that still hold? I would say that anybody signing support for a national security law has to be mad (under normal circumstances), no matter how easy it is to put down a signature.
    - robjan 6y ago
      I was offered a bag ~10 surgical masks or a hand sanitizer a few months ago in return for signing that petition by people waiting at the entrance to my apartment building. At this time there was a huge scramble for masks which were in short supply. I'm not disputing the law or the level of support but I feel there were some flaws in the signature collection process.
AnimalMuppet 6y ago
Or coerced. Note that the coercion doesn't have to be blatant or explicit. China said some fairly threatening things about Hong Kong, and some number of residents may have decided that, for their own safety, they needed to signal that they were in support. What they actually feel or think may be different.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- y2kenny 6y ago
  Yes, big businesses as well: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/06/03/hsbc-backs-chinas-national-security-law-hong-kong/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/06/03/hsbc-backs-c... >> Last Friday Leung Chun-ying, Hong Kong’s pro-Beijing former leader, demanded that HSBC state its position after enjoying privileges in the territory that “should not be taken for granted”. He also warned that it could “be replaced by banks from China or other countries overnight”. In a Facebook post he wrote: “We need to let … British companies such as HSBC know which side of the bread is buttered.”

...or the signatures are fake? Petition fraud. Happens in US too, see net neutrality.

by jakear 6y ago

...or the signatures are fake? Petition fraud. Happens in US too, see net neutrality.

Well I did say that 3M is likely to be an overestimation. How many do you believe are fake? Let's say 40% are fake. That puts the number of legit signatures at 1.6M: still in the same ballpark as the number of protesters, which shows that society is divided. If you disagree with this analysis, I would love to hear why.

vehementi 6y ago
40% is the conservative estimate number the the US government faked for the net neutrality thing and that's with transparency in the comments. Let's go with 99% for China?
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  There was a local district election in November, in which the pro-Democracy party won. Do you believe that those election results are real or not?
nitrogen 6y ago
A petition is a much lower effort action than a protest. People motivated enough to protest in person probably represent a stronger opinion base than people merely motivated enough to sign a petition.
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  That's generally true. In this case, it's a petition about a national security law, so does that still hold? I would say that anybody signing support for a national security law has to be mad (under normal circumstances), no matter how easy it is to put down a signature.
  - robjan 6y ago
    I was offered a bag ~10 surgical masks or a hand sanitizer a few months ago in return for signing that petition by people waiting at the entrance to my apartment building. At this time there was a huge scramble for masks which were in short supply. I'm not disputing the law or the level of support but I feel there were some flaws in the signature collection process.

AnimalMuppet 6y ago

Or coerced. Note that the coercion doesn't have to be blatant or explicit. China said some fairly threatening things about Hong Kong, and some number of residents may have decided that, for their own safety, they needed to signal that they were in support. What they actually feel or think may be different.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
y2kenny 6y ago
Yes, big businesses as well: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/06/03/hsbc-backs-chinas-national-security-law-hong-kong/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/06/03/hsbc-backs-c... >> Last Friday Leung Chun-ying, Hong Kong’s pro-Beijing former leader, demanded that HSBC state its position after enjoying privileges in the territory that “should not be taken for granted”. He also warned that it could “be replaced by banks from China or other countries overnight”. In a Facebook post he wrote: “We need to let … British companies such as HSBC know which side of the bread is buttered.”