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One half of a happily childless mid-30s DINK married couple here. We plan to stay that way. If the government wants me to have kids, they had better incentiviz

One half of a happily childless mid-30s DINK married couple here. We plan to stay that way. If the government wants me to have kids, they had better incentivize it. And when I say incentivize, I don't mean exclusively financial incentives. Ideological ones as well. Right now, the primary reasons for having children are: 1. Personal desire to have children/biological drive to reproduce - so much so that you're willing to shoulder an enormous burden just to have children. 2. Social pressure from family, friends, and society at large - so much so that you're willing to shoulder an enormous burden just to feel like you're making them happy. Sidenote: Folks from camp #2 often seem deeply unhappy. Free universal pre-K childcare would help a lot toward sweetening the pot, as would substantial investment in public school systems. Despite what you may think, this isn't about money or about us being greedy with our time. I don't have a lot of faith in the idea of bringing a human life into the world as it is, but I also want to see evidence from my government that they're building a country worth living in for my future children. Otherwise, why would I bother to subject them to playing a game where the deck is stacked against them? By all accounts, a child of mine would come into the world with their own enormous privilege and advantage over other children (white, born into a higher income family of college graduates, etc.) - but can I really stomach that while knowing it comes at the expense of some other child's opportunity? I felt this way before the pandemic and social unrest of recent months. Now I feel it even more acutely. Personally, I'm completely content with not having kids. But if the government wants me and other people like me to have children, they'd better make the lives of parents easier, lower the barrier to entry, and massively increase my confidence level that this shit-hole country will be worth living in 100 years from now :)

dctoedt 6y ago
> Personally, I'm completely content with not having kids. Sincere question: I wonder how you'll feel in 30 or 40 years. I have an extremely smart, distant-relative-by-marriage who's in his late 60s; he dotes on his two middle-aged nephews and their young families — my speculation is that, as he has developed some health problems, he's come to realize that they're all he has for his old age.
- porkloin 6y ago
  I've spent a lot of time thinking about that particular question, and the simple answer is that yes, my partner and I may find ourselves late in life wishing we had done otherwise. We also very easily could find ourselves wishing we hadn't. I look around and see many people who also have very poor relationships with their elderly parents - I don't discount the fact that given the culture of America at this particular moment that I could have children who bring me great joy for the 18 years they are with me, who only then become all but distant strangers once they enter into their adult life. This seems increasingly common nowadays. Or they could love me sincerely! Either way, if I had children, I wouldn't think it right or just to burden them with an expectation that they owe me endless years of emotional, physical, or social support. Additionally, I think our brains are very good at rationalizing and justifying the choices we already have made, and so I'd mostly suspect that I'll continue to convince myself that I made the right choice regardless of any loneliness that may crop up later in life. It also might seem callous, but there are simple psychological needs (such as feeling that you're caring or providing for another being) that are easily fulfilled without having children. Pets help a lot. Volunteering helps as well. And, of course, just like your older relative, spending time around other children and young people when you can. My hope is that between all of these things, I'll lead a happy and fulfilling life. Or maybe I won't – but I ultimately don't have any control over that. And my personal opinion is that having children doesn't assure you a fulfilling life either!
  - dctoedt 6y ago
    Well said; you've obviously given this a lot of thought.
  - folkhack 6y ago
    > Either way, if I had children, I wouldn't think it right or just to burden them with an expectation that they owe me endless years of emotional, physical, or social support. Just throwing this out there - I 100% agree with you but anecdotally find that older generations see this completely different. There's an expectation/entitlement there of "we raised you, so you owe us this..."
- 6y ago
refurb 6y ago
If the government wants me to have kids, they had better incentivize it. Plenty of countries do those things, Quebec is a great example. Universal healthcare, subsidized daycare, baby bonus payments. They still don't have many kids.
- porkloin 6y ago
  I think that's where the idea of ideological incentives come in. If I don't particularly feel the biological urge to have children (aka drive to spread my genes), I might feel differently if I had more faith that my country's society and culture were worth contributing back to. I don't feel that way about this country (America).
  - refurb 6y ago
    My point is, you probably wouldn’t feel different if those things did change.
    - porkloin 6y ago
      Fair enough. I am definitely pretty curmudgeonly :) That said, I tend to think social/cultural incentives are more than just social programs and government spending. Right now, I feel like I live in a culture that I don't have an affinity for. It's an awful lot like workplace culture – you can't manufacture it entirely by implementing programs or throwing money at people. Those things help, but only if there's a foundation of good culture to back them up. It has to be earned, cultivated, and grown. In a fairy-tale version of America where I wasn't jaded and grumpy, who's to say I wouldn't want a big family? >Pandas and white rhinos aren’t the only creatures that are unsuccessful at mating in captivity. The pithy lede to the article says it better than I can.
- RestlessMind 6y ago
  To add more data points to your comment - Scandinavian countries famously have great social safety nets, but their fertility rates are not better compared to the US (1.77) - Finland (1.49), Norway (1.71), Sweden (1.85), Denmark (1.79).

dctoedt 6y ago

> Personally, I'm completely content with not having kids. Sincere question: I wonder how you'll feel in 30 or 40 years. I have an extremely smart, distant-relative-by-marriage who's in his late 60s; he dotes on his two middle-aged nephews and their young families — my speculation is that, as he has developed some health problems, he's come to realize that they're all he has for his old age.

porkloin 6y ago
I've spent a lot of time thinking about that particular question, and the simple answer is that yes, my partner and I may find ourselves late in life wishing we had done otherwise. We also very easily could find ourselves wishing we hadn't. I look around and see many people who also have very poor relationships with their elderly parents - I don't discount the fact that given the culture of America at this particular moment that I could have children who bring me great joy for the 18 years they are with me, who only then become all but distant strangers once they enter into their adult life. This seems increasingly common nowadays. Or they could love me sincerely! Either way, if I had children, I wouldn't think it right or just to burden them with an expectation that they owe me endless years of emotional, physical, or social support. Additionally, I think our brains are very good at rationalizing and justifying the choices we already have made, and so I'd mostly suspect that I'll continue to convince myself that I made the right choice regardless of any loneliness that may crop up later in life. It also might seem callous, but there are simple psychological needs (such as feeling that you're caring or providing for another being) that are easily fulfilled without having children. Pets help a lot. Volunteering helps as well. And, of course, just like your older relative, spending time around other children and young people when you can. My hope is that between all of these things, I'll lead a happy and fulfilling life. Or maybe I won't – but I ultimately don't have any control over that. And my personal opinion is that having children doesn't assure you a fulfilling life either!
- dctoedt 6y ago
  Well said; you've obviously given this a lot of thought.
- folkhack 6y ago
  > Either way, if I had children, I wouldn't think it right or just to burden them with an expectation that they owe me endless years of emotional, physical, or social support. Just throwing this out there - I 100% agree with you but anecdotally find that older generations see this completely different. There's an expectation/entitlement there of "we raised you, so you owe us this..."
6y ago

refurb 6y ago

If the government wants me to have kids, they had better incentivize it. Plenty of countries do those things, Quebec is a great example. Universal healthcare, subsidized daycare, baby bonus payments. They still don't have many kids.

porkloin 6y ago
I think that's where the idea of ideological incentives come in. If I don't particularly feel the biological urge to have children (aka drive to spread my genes), I might feel differently if I had more faith that my country's society and culture were worth contributing back to. I don't feel that way about this country (America).
- refurb 6y ago
  My point is, you probably wouldn’t feel different if those things did change.
  - porkloin 6y ago
    Fair enough. I am definitely pretty curmudgeonly :) That said, I tend to think social/cultural incentives are more than just social programs and government spending. Right now, I feel like I live in a culture that I don't have an affinity for. It's an awful lot like workplace culture – you can't manufacture it entirely by implementing programs or throwing money at people. Those things help, but only if there's a foundation of good culture to back them up. It has to be earned, cultivated, and grown. In a fairy-tale version of America where I wasn't jaded and grumpy, who's to say I wouldn't want a big family? >Pandas and white rhinos aren’t the only creatures that are unsuccessful at mating in captivity. The pithy lede to the article says it better than I can.
RestlessMind 6y ago
To add more data points to your comment - Scandinavian countries famously have great social safety nets, but their fertility rates are not better compared to the US (1.77) - Finland (1.49), Norway (1.71), Sweden (1.85), Denmark (1.79).