4 ms·

Sounds like a last ditch effort to prevent the app from getting banned in several countries. I have two takes, one it's very admirable for a company to release

Sounds like a last ditch effort to prevent the app from getting banned in several countries. I have two takes, one it's very admirable for a company to release its algorithms and drive more transparency and I think it will help the public trust ByteDance more. The other take is much more cynical. When they finally release the algorithm how will we know that's the whole story? I'm sure researchers will have to formally verify it somehow (not an expert here so I'm speculating). Also this does nothing to actually prevent them from further abusing user data. Seems like this release is just a red herring that diverts attention from the other shady stuff they are doing.

onetimemanytime 6y ago
>>When they finally release the algorithm how will we know that's the whole story? Bingo. Unless you have a NSA squad checking every code change they make. Don't use them and be done.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
jka 6y ago
The truth may be some combination of the two - it's certainly arguable that more transparent social network algorithms could be in everyone's interests; it's also true that TikTok would like to find ways to compete with Facebook, and increasing access to their source code may be part of their approach. Attempting to take a global view, the ability for users themselves to scrutinize source code could be particularly important if & when subsets of them encounter bugs or get stuck in software that increasingly mediates conversations and real-world interactions. In any case, as you say, source code is only part of the equation when we're determining how trustworthy the companies we deal with are. As it happens, Facebook mentioned some of their contributions to the open source community as part of their testimony[1] to the Antitrust committee hearing today: "We actively contribute to the open-source community. ... I believe sharing our intellectual property this way helps the entire ecosystem move forward and develop new products." The TikTok Transparency Center[2] announced by the CEO does not yet include access to source code, as far as I can tell, although it does mention it. [1] - https://docs.house.gov/meetings/JU/JU05/20200729/110883/HHRG-116-JU05-Wstate-ZuckerbergM-20200729.pdf https://docs.house.gov/meetings/JU/JU05/20200729/110883/HHRG... [2] - https://www.tiktok.com/transparency https://www.tiktok.com/transparency
the_pwner224 6y ago
> When they finally release the algorithm how will we know that's the whole story? We already know the algorithm won't be the whole story; it already isn't. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22610829 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22610829 There's also a section on censorship in the middle of that FA. My younger brother who does lots of TikTok says that he doesn't see anything about China, good or bad; but he has seen plenty of the stereotypical Chinese anti-USA stuff (coverage on riots, unrest, etc.). But of course that could just be because he doesn't care about China and doesn't view Chinese stuff on TikTok. Anyway, we can't tell anything unless the moderation process and decisions are also made public.
- xster 6y ago
  I'm surprised you're drawing on anecdata with n=1. My feed has plenty of China videos, good or bad. Now you have n=2.
  - the_pwner224 6y ago
    > Anyway, we can't tell anything unless the moderation process and decisions are also made public.
billfruit 6y ago
Clearly though neither Apple nor Google have thought TikTok problematic enough to not delist it from their app stores. I don't think any app should be banned unless they indulge in criminality/illegality which needs to be proven in law.
- DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
  Exactly, but all that has gone out the window when it comes to Chinese companies. The US has waged an aggressive campaign to destroy Huawei - pressuring governments around the world to ban use of their equipment and threatening Huawei's suppliers with sanctions (even its non-US suppliers) - based on completely unsupported claims of surveillance. The message to China is: we want you to open your market to our high-tech products, but you're not allowed to develop your own high-tech products, much less sell them abroad. The US was fine with China being a platform for low-wage labor for Western companies, but the US not okay with the existence of a peer-level competitor on the world stage. Trump's impulsive tendencies make this even more dangerous. The closing of the Houston consulate was a dramatic step. The possible cutting off of diplomatic relations between the world's two largest powers is extremely alarming. As the election gets closer, however, I fear we'll see more such abrupt actions, especially if Trump's poll numbers continue to slump.
  - Avicebron 6y ago
    This is no where near the message. The message is, the wealthy of the US have exploited China for low wage labor (also high quality production) and we need to stop allowing that to happen and bring that back to the US. Competition is the foundation of the US ethos and if that becomes obviously lopsided there needs to be a correction
  - maxdo 6y ago
    Uhm, how you even come up with this conclusions ?? China was throwing away so many US companies. Stole so many IP with no trials or fines for that. US didn't protect their interests for years. Any other normal country would protect their businesses years ago. This pressure is very soft and kind comparing how China treat any other foreign company not only US.
hkmaxpro 6y ago
> When they finally release the algorithm how will we know that's the whole story? Censorship by moderators are beyond the algorithms. Their algorithms and moderators censored Tiananmen Square, Tibetan independence, Falun Gong [0], Uighur sympathizer [1], Hong Kong protests [2], and (as another commenter points out) the ugly, poor, or disabled [3]. Their moderation guidelines banned contents “endangering national security” or deemed “uglification or distortion of local or other countries’ history” [4]. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/sep/25/revealed-how-tiktok-censors-videos-that-do-not-please-beijing https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/sep/25/revealed-... [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/26/tiktok-says-it-doesnt-censor-but-a-user-who-criticized-china-was-locked-out.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/26/tiktok-says-it-doesnt-censor... [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/09/15/tiktoks-beijing-roots-fuel-censorship-suspicion-it-builds-huge-us-audience/?noredirect=on https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/09/15/tiktoks... [3] https://theintercept.com/2020/03/16/tiktok-app-moderators-users-discrimination/ https://theintercept.com/2020/03/16/tiktok-app-moderators-us... [4] https://www.socialmediatoday.com/news/tiktok-once-again-comes-under-scrutiny-over-extreme-moderation-and-censorsh/574243/ https://www.socialmediatoday.com/news/tiktok-once-again-come...

onetimemanytime 6y ago

>>When they finally release the algorithm how will we know that's the whole story? Bingo. Unless you have a NSA squad checking every code change they make. Don't use them and be done.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

jka 6y ago

The truth may be some combination of the two - it's certainly arguable that more transparent social network algorithms could be in everyone's interests; it's also true that TikTok would like to find ways to compete with Facebook, and increasing access to their source code may be part of their approach. Attempting to take a global view, the ability for users themselves to scrutinize source code could be particularly important if & when subsets of them encounter bugs or get stuck in software that increasingly mediates conversations and real-world interactions. In any case, as you say, source code is only part of the equation when we're determining how trustworthy the companies we deal with are. As it happens, Facebook mentioned some of their contributions to the open source community as part of their testimony[1] to the Antitrust committee hearing today: "We actively contribute to the open-source community. ... I believe sharing our intellectual property this way helps the entire ecosystem move forward and develop new products." The TikTok Transparency Center[2] announced by the CEO does not yet include access to source code, as far as I can tell, although it does mention it. [1] - https://docs.house.gov/meetings/JU/JU05/20200729/110883/HHRG-116-JU05-Wstate-ZuckerbergM-20200729.pdf https://docs.house.gov/meetings/JU/JU05/20200729/110883/HHRG... [2] - https://www.tiktok.com/transparency https://www.tiktok.com/transparency

the_pwner224 6y ago

> When they finally release the algorithm how will we know that's the whole story? We already know the algorithm won't be the whole story; it already isn't. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22610829 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22610829 There's also a section on censorship in the middle of that FA. My younger brother who does lots of TikTok says that he doesn't see anything about China, good or bad; but he has seen plenty of the stereotypical Chinese anti-USA stuff (coverage on riots, unrest, etc.). But of course that could just be because he doesn't care about China and doesn't view Chinese stuff on TikTok. Anyway, we can't tell anything unless the moderation process and decisions are also made public.

xster 6y ago
I'm surprised you're drawing on anecdata with n=1. My feed has plenty of China videos, good or bad. Now you have n=2.
- the_pwner224 6y ago
  > Anyway, we can't tell anything unless the moderation process and decisions are also made public.

billfruit 6y ago

Clearly though neither Apple nor Google have thought TikTok problematic enough to not delist it from their app stores. I don't think any app should be banned unless they indulge in criminality/illegality which needs to be proven in law.

DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
Exactly, but all that has gone out the window when it comes to Chinese companies. The US has waged an aggressive campaign to destroy Huawei - pressuring governments around the world to ban use of their equipment and threatening Huawei's suppliers with sanctions (even its non-US suppliers) - based on completely unsupported claims of surveillance. The message to China is: we want you to open your market to our high-tech products, but you're not allowed to develop your own high-tech products, much less sell them abroad. The US was fine with China being a platform for low-wage labor for Western companies, but the US not okay with the existence of a peer-level competitor on the world stage. Trump's impulsive tendencies make this even more dangerous. The closing of the Houston consulate was a dramatic step. The possible cutting off of diplomatic relations between the world's two largest powers is extremely alarming. As the election gets closer, however, I fear we'll see more such abrupt actions, especially if Trump's poll numbers continue to slump.
- Avicebron 6y ago
  This is no where near the message. The message is, the wealthy of the US have exploited China for low wage labor (also high quality production) and we need to stop allowing that to happen and bring that back to the US. Competition is the foundation of the US ethos and if that becomes obviously lopsided there needs to be a correction
- maxdo 6y ago
  Uhm, how you even come up with this conclusions ?? China was throwing away so many US companies. Stole so many IP with no trials or fines for that. US didn't protect their interests for years. Any other normal country would protect their businesses years ago. This pressure is very soft and kind comparing how China treat any other foreign company not only US.

hkmaxpro 6y ago

> When they finally release the algorithm how will we know that's the whole story? Censorship by moderators are beyond the algorithms. Their algorithms and moderators censored Tiananmen Square, Tibetan independence, Falun Gong [0], Uighur sympathizer [1], Hong Kong protests [2], and (as another commenter points out) the ugly, poor, or disabled [3]. Their moderation guidelines banned contents “endangering national security” or deemed “uglification or distortion of local or other countries’ history” [4]. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/sep/25/revealed-how-tiktok-censors-videos-that-do-not-please-beijing https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/sep/25/revealed-... [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/26/tiktok-says-it-doesnt-censor-but-a-user-who-criticized-china-was-locked-out.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/26/tiktok-says-it-doesnt-censor... [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/09/15/tiktoks-beijing-roots-fuel-censorship-suspicion-it-builds-huge-us-audience/?noredirect=on https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/09/15/tiktoks... [3] https://theintercept.com/2020/03/16/tiktok-app-moderators-users-discrimination/ https://theintercept.com/2020/03/16/tiktok-app-moderators-us... [4] https://www.socialmediatoday.com/news/tiktok-once-again-comes-under-scrutiny-over-extreme-moderation-and-censorsh/574243/ https://www.socialmediatoday.com/news/tiktok-once-again-come...