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Okay, so I do believe in worker's rights and in general that Amazon is too large. Especially that city bidding mess where it was just a way to get free data fro

Okay, so I do believe in worker's rights and in general that Amazon is too large. Especially that city bidding mess where it was just a way to get free data from cities about their future plans. But I don't like the argument in the article. It lays the responsibility of government to fix something that the public can have a bigger influence on. It's something I do. Don't buy from Amazon. I don't approve of their warehouse policies. Thus, I choose not to buy from them. It's not like they are the only shop on the web. The convenience argument is rather petty too. At a certain point, you have to put adult pants on. You are just funding them in doing what you don't like if you wait for someone else to "fix" the problem.

bilal4hmed 6y ago
this, there are so many options to buy from that aren't Amazon. I've been in so many discussions with friends on this matter and when I ask them why they don't shop elsewhere, it always boils down to these two scenarios Amazon makes it so easy for me to buy, I don't have to think. Have you tried the others ?? No
- ytdytvhxgydvhh 6y ago
  I agree with you both in theory and I’ve limited my purchasing from Amazon for such reasons. But I’ve come across products where the company has a first-party website to promote their product, but no first-party way to actually purchase the product. They just have links to go buy at Amazon. For now these are rarities but I’d be concerned that it becomes more common without government intervention.
  - Theory5 6y ago
    Amazon makes money by being so damn easy to spend your money and get products. One click buying probably increased the average American's monthly spending a decent percentage alone. Making it just as easy for third party sellers is a no brainier, and will only increase their influence and grasp. Especially if they can cut small business overhead significantly. Today, why would anyone want the overhead of building and maintaining an ecommerce site when their business is too small to do it without lots of money and additional overhead.
- adamsea 6y ago
  Respectfully I don't think it's as easy as you think. Consider, for a non-tech person: 1. I have to be told or take the time to discover the non-Amazon option exists. And (though I haven't tested it) my guess is these days it takes a while to use Google (the default search tool for folks) to find an alternative. 2. I have to assess if I trust this new alternative. 3. I have to figure out how this new alternative works. For non-technical folks, depending on their background and how good or bad the UX for a site is, this could be a blocker. 4. I have to search on the new site for what I want. 5. I have to check how long the new site will take to deliver the item. 6. I have to enter payment information which again raises the question of trust. All of these small (or not so small) frictions add up, IMHO, and it's not anyone's fault. It's just human behavior. Amazon has a great customer experience when it comes to the items I listed. The problem as we know isn't that - it's how they stifle competition and help create the conditions in which they are the only company with this level of customer service. Oh yeah, and Amazon's abusive labor practices when it comes to the people it hires to work in it's warehouses.
rmcpherson 6y ago
Unionization, as argued for in the op-ed, is something that’s legal right now. We just need government to enforce the laws already in place. Laws paid for with the blood of the labor movement in the early 20th century. Unfortunately regulatory capture has eviscerated the agencies and government bodies tasked with upholding those laws.
- NoOneNew 6y ago
  Doesn't help when the general public bank rolls companies to fight laws and regulatory actions. That's my point. The money Amazon uses doesn't magically appear. These companies dont use spells to generate income, it comes from the people. I swear, it seems like folks dont know how business works these days. The people are voting with dollars saying Amazon is doing the right thing when they buy from Amazon. That's the reality. People generally dont want to see themselves as being accessories to this mess and just say, "the gov isn't doing enough to stop Amazon from abusing workers... I totally need to buy that new widget, good thing I have Prime shipping."
  - Barrin92 6y ago
    > The people are voting with dollars saying Amazon is doing the right thing when they buy from Amazon. That's the reality. And how is that justification? If people buy cheap stuff made from prison or child labour does that justify the practise? It just tells us that people by and large are indifferent to the conditions under which their goods are produced, it's not a justification for it. That people don't care about Amazon labour conditions doesn't tell us that Amazon is doing the 'right thing', it tells us that people don't care about worker rights. That's what laws and governments exist for. People also never cared that their palm oil consumption endangers biodiversity and destroys the rainforest, because they don't suffer from it.
    - NoOneNew 6y ago
      Justify the practice? I'm the one arguing that Amazon is too large and we need better labor laws to protect workers, but the public isn't helping the matter by crying, then buying stuff on Amazon. Yes laws exist for a reason, but I dont need a law to tell me stealing and murder is bad. While that's an extreme example, it's to prove that people need to own up to their own decision making if they want to complain. You shouldn't need your mommy around to tell you to do the right thing or who to associate with. Be an adult and be proactive.
tsherr 6y ago
To be fair, the reason we have governments is to make our lives better. Legislation to help citizens is the point of government.
adamsea 6y ago
I'm confused. Are you arguing government shouldn't take action, because the public can? Or the other way around? Honest question. Also (and forgive me if this is a a result of misunderstanding your comment) in a small-d democratic system the government is a representative of the public. IMHO the government is our "adult pants" because it is our system of managing law, albeit an imperfect one.
- NoOneNew 6y ago
  I think the gov, at this point, should do a serious and thorough investigation on workers rights violations with proper/harsh punishments where appropriate along with investigating anti competitive practices. But I dont believe its genuine for someone to complain about what Amazon is doing, then fund the company to continue their shady practices. It's like someone in Greenpeace crying for more laws to protect animals while they club a seal to death for their fur. You dont "need" laws for you to do the moral and correct thing in your personal life. It's more meant to protect you from others doing bad onto you. Unless you're a whiny child with no sense of responsibility... anyways, stand up for what you believe. Dont wait around. Thats the adult pants comment. Sure, you now have to click a few extra times to buy the same item elsewhere... what a painful sacrifice... Go ahead and buy from Amazon but dont get on a high horse, saying workers have rights, but fund a company for violating those rights. By the way, when someone says to "put your adult pants on", that means you do things for yourself, by yourself, no matter how difficult or painful. Not have someone else do it for you.
  - adamsea 6y ago
    Thanks for the clarification. Yeah I agree about the government doing an investigation. In spirit I agree with you but think it's not as black-and-white as you described. For example: I forget to get a book as a birthday present. The party is in two days. If I decide to order the book on Amazon, because it's the only fast and reliable shipper of books whom I know will have the book I want, I don't see that the same as clubbing a baby seal, so to speak. The issue being of course, whether Amazon qualifies as a monoply in the "Ma Bell" sense or not, there's not an obvious peer competitor, so, human behavior being what it is, people default to Amazon because, well, people are people. We're all babies sometimes. That said I did just recently order a book from https://www.betterworldbooks.com/ https://www.betterworldbooks.com/ so there ya go. : )

bilal4hmed 6y ago

this, there are so many options to buy from that aren't Amazon. I've been in so many discussions with friends on this matter and when I ask them why they don't shop elsewhere, it always boils down to these two scenarios Amazon makes it so easy for me to buy, I don't have to think. Have you tried the others ?? No

ytdytvhxgydvhh 6y ago
I agree with you both in theory and I’ve limited my purchasing from Amazon for such reasons. But I’ve come across products where the company has a first-party website to promote their product, but no first-party way to actually purchase the product. They just have links to go buy at Amazon. For now these are rarities but I’d be concerned that it becomes more common without government intervention.
- Theory5 6y ago
  Amazon makes money by being so damn easy to spend your money and get products. One click buying probably increased the average American's monthly spending a decent percentage alone. Making it just as easy for third party sellers is a no brainier, and will only increase their influence and grasp. Especially if they can cut small business overhead significantly. Today, why would anyone want the overhead of building and maintaining an ecommerce site when their business is too small to do it without lots of money and additional overhead.
adamsea 6y ago
Respectfully I don't think it's as easy as you think. Consider, for a non-tech person: 1. I have to be told or take the time to discover the non-Amazon option exists. And (though I haven't tested it) my guess is these days it takes a while to use Google (the default search tool for folks) to find an alternative. 2. I have to assess if I trust this new alternative. 3. I have to figure out how this new alternative works. For non-technical folks, depending on their background and how good or bad the UX for a site is, this could be a blocker. 4. I have to search on the new site for what I want. 5. I have to check how long the new site will take to deliver the item. 6. I have to enter payment information which again raises the question of trust. All of these small (or not so small) frictions add up, IMHO, and it's not anyone's fault. It's just human behavior. Amazon has a great customer experience when it comes to the items I listed. The problem as we know isn't that - it's how they stifle competition and help create the conditions in which they are the only company with this level of customer service. Oh yeah, and Amazon's abusive labor practices when it comes to the people it hires to work in it's warehouses.

rmcpherson 6y ago

Unionization, as argued for in the op-ed, is something that’s legal right now. We just need government to enforce the laws already in place. Laws paid for with the blood of the labor movement in the early 20th century. Unfortunately regulatory capture has eviscerated the agencies and government bodies tasked with upholding those laws.

NoOneNew 6y ago
Doesn't help when the general public bank rolls companies to fight laws and regulatory actions. That's my point. The money Amazon uses doesn't magically appear. These companies dont use spells to generate income, it comes from the people. I swear, it seems like folks dont know how business works these days. The people are voting with dollars saying Amazon is doing the right thing when they buy from Amazon. That's the reality. People generally dont want to see themselves as being accessories to this mess and just say, "the gov isn't doing enough to stop Amazon from abusing workers... I totally need to buy that new widget, good thing I have Prime shipping."
- Barrin92 6y ago
  > The people are voting with dollars saying Amazon is doing the right thing when they buy from Amazon. That's the reality. And how is that justification? If people buy cheap stuff made from prison or child labour does that justify the practise? It just tells us that people by and large are indifferent to the conditions under which their goods are produced, it's not a justification for it. That people don't care about Amazon labour conditions doesn't tell us that Amazon is doing the 'right thing', it tells us that people don't care about worker rights. That's what laws and governments exist for. People also never cared that their palm oil consumption endangers biodiversity and destroys the rainforest, because they don't suffer from it.
  - NoOneNew 6y ago
    Justify the practice? I'm the one arguing that Amazon is too large and we need better labor laws to protect workers, but the public isn't helping the matter by crying, then buying stuff on Amazon. Yes laws exist for a reason, but I dont need a law to tell me stealing and murder is bad. While that's an extreme example, it's to prove that people need to own up to their own decision making if they want to complain. You shouldn't need your mommy around to tell you to do the right thing or who to associate with. Be an adult and be proactive.

tsherr 6y ago

To be fair, the reason we have governments is to make our lives better. Legislation to help citizens is the point of government.

adamsea 6y ago

I'm confused. Are you arguing government shouldn't take action, because the public can? Or the other way around? Honest question. Also (and forgive me if this is a a result of misunderstanding your comment) in a small-d democratic system the government is a representative of the public. IMHO the government is our "adult pants" because it is our system of managing law, albeit an imperfect one.

NoOneNew 6y ago
I think the gov, at this point, should do a serious and thorough investigation on workers rights violations with proper/harsh punishments where appropriate along with investigating anti competitive practices. But I dont believe its genuine for someone to complain about what Amazon is doing, then fund the company to continue their shady practices. It's like someone in Greenpeace crying for more laws to protect animals while they club a seal to death for their fur. You dont "need" laws for you to do the moral and correct thing in your personal life. It's more meant to protect you from others doing bad onto you. Unless you're a whiny child with no sense of responsibility... anyways, stand up for what you believe. Dont wait around. Thats the adult pants comment. Sure, you now have to click a few extra times to buy the same item elsewhere... what a painful sacrifice... Go ahead and buy from Amazon but dont get on a high horse, saying workers have rights, but fund a company for violating those rights. By the way, when someone says to "put your adult pants on", that means you do things for yourself, by yourself, no matter how difficult or painful. Not have someone else do it for you.
- adamsea 6y ago
  Thanks for the clarification. Yeah I agree about the government doing an investigation. In spirit I agree with you but think it's not as black-and-white as you described. For example: I forget to get a book as a birthday present. The party is in two days. If I decide to order the book on Amazon, because it's the only fast and reliable shipper of books whom I know will have the book I want, I don't see that the same as clubbing a baby seal, so to speak. The issue being of course, whether Amazon qualifies as a monoply in the "Ma Bell" sense or not, there's not an obvious peer competitor, so, human behavior being what it is, people default to Amazon because, well, people are people. We're all babies sometimes. That said I did just recently order a book from https://www.betterworldbooks.com/ https://www.betterworldbooks.com/ so there ya go. : )