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And yet radioactivity from bananas does not seem to accumulate in the water supply of SF, or does it? Has there been a measurable increase in radioactivity in t

by Tichy 16y ago

And yet radioactivity from bananas does not seem to accumulate in the water supply of SF, or does it? Has there been a measurable increase in radioactivity in the SF water supply because of all the discarded banana peels? The real newsworthy aspect of the Fukushima isotopes in SF is that Fukushima can affect the whole world. And who knows, maybe those isotopes can accumulate? Not saying that I worry, just saying that there still seem to be fundamental differences between Fukushima isotopes (spreading and accumulating), bananas (seemingly not spreading so much, not sure about accumulating) and the sun (no isotopes?). As I said, I think those comparisons just seem dishonest to me and make the pro-nuclear people lose credibility. Also, the Tacoma bridge was built by engineers, too, and yet it broke down. Obviously engineers are not the infallible angels that you make them out to be.

PotatoEngineer 16y ago
Quick crash course: there's two major kinds of radiation, actual particles (alpha and beta radiation, which are helium nuclei and electrons, respectively) and high-energy electromagnetic waves (gamma radiation: like x-rays on steroids). Radioactive isotopes (such as those coming from Fukushima) tend to emit both, as they decay into non-radioactive elements. So once an atom emits radiation, it's done radiating (unless it's decayed into another radioactive particle, but eventually it'll hit something stable and never radiate ever again). So the isotopes arrive at some rate, and they decay into non-radioactive elements over time. (That's what the "8-day half-life" in the article means: after 8 days, only half of it will be left.) At some point, the Japanese engineers will get everything cleaned up, no more isotopes will arrive, and all isotopes will eventually decay. Even if the Japanese take their sweet time getting things cleaned up, the isotopes are still decaying over time, so they won't accumulate unless the Japanese truly screw up and start releasing increasing amounts of isotopes.
- Tichy 16y ago
  The "time" can be thousands of years, though - maybe you forgot to mention that? Anyway, I don't claim there is a danger to the US.
  - DarkShikari 16y ago
    Longer-lived isotopes produce proportionally less radiation. There are no fission isotopes with half-lives between ~1e2 and ~1e4 years.
    - Tichy 16y ago
      Yeah well, they can still be dangerous. Otherwise, why don't they just wait it out in Fukushima? Atoms are very small, so even tiny amounts of matter contain a lot of them. So even if any single atom only emits radiation every couple of years, a tiny lump of matter can emit radiation more often than every couple of years, because there are so many atoms in it.
CoffeeDregs 16y ago
>Has there been a measurable increase in radioactivity in the SF water >supply because of all the discarded banana peels? Two things: I don't put banana peels down the drain; and, more importantly, there hasn't been a measurable increase in the radioactivity of the SF water supply... Rain water has radioactive isotopes in it. We've had a bit of rain, so our water supply has a drop in the bucket of basically-not-contaminated water. Given the short half-lives of most of the isotopes, our water supply will not be contaminated (in any meaningful sense of the word). >And who knows, maybe those isotopes can accumulate? Who knows? Hella people know. Like anyone who's taken basic science classes. They obviously will accumulate and then will radiate and change. Some may concentrate in tissues (e.g. the thyroid), but the starting concentrations are too low to make a difference. >just saying I noticed that you're German, so I hope you don't mind me pointing out that the "just saying" idiom is seen as signaling either ignorance (by asserting something while simultaneously disallowing rebuttal) or humor. As in, "I'm just saying that humans don't much seem like apes". >fundamental differences between Fukushima isotopes (spreading and accumulating), >bananas (seemingly not spreading so much, not sure about accumulating) and the >sun (no isotopes?) I agree. Bananas and the sun will be responsible for loads of deaths; Fukushima will not. The isotopes in bananas are also much worse because you ingest them: radioactive isotopes on the skin can be showered off; ones in your intestines ... not so much... Also, paraphrasing the great Andre the Giant: you keep on using that word "accumulate", but I do not think you know what it means. >Also, the Tacoma bridge was built by engineers, too, and yet it broke down. >Obviously engineers are not the infallible angels that you make them out to be. I'm apparently an "infallible angel" and one of the best aspects of an engineering education is the notion of "tolerances". Nothing is perfect; everything is fallible. If you meet an engineer who thinks they're infallible, you can tell 'em that I said they were doing it wrong.
- Tichy 16y ago
  "The isotopes in bananas are also much worse because you ingest them: radioactive isotopes on the skin can be showered off; ones in your intestines ... not so much..." Well you can ingest isotopes from nuclear power plants, too. For example the cesium from Chernobyl "accumulates" in mushrooms (I hope you can figure out what Imean by accumulate, don't know a better word for it), even today. In Germany they still shoot wild pigs and mark them unfit for human consumption because because they eat those mushrooms and hence become radioactive. Anyway, nobody has claimed that the isotopes from Fukushima are endangering SF - yet. I apologize for misreading about water supply vs rain. "one of the best aspects of an engineering education is the notion of "tolerances"." People just seem to have different comfort zones. And there is always Murphy's law, as Fukushima demonstrated again (earthquake+Tsunami at the same time).

by Tichy 16y ago

PotatoEngineer 16y ago

Quick crash course: there's two major kinds of radiation, actual particles (alpha and beta radiation, which are helium nuclei and electrons, respectively) and high-energy electromagnetic waves (gamma radiation: like x-rays on steroids). Radioactive isotopes (such as those coming from Fukushima) tend to emit both, as they decay into non-radioactive elements. So once an atom emits radiation, it's done radiating (unless it's decayed into another radioactive particle, but eventually it'll hit something stable and never radiate ever again). So the isotopes arrive at some rate, and they decay into non-radioactive elements over time. (That's what the "8-day half-life" in the article means: after 8 days, only half of it will be left.) At some point, the Japanese engineers will get everything cleaned up, no more isotopes will arrive, and all isotopes will eventually decay. Even if the Japanese take their sweet time getting things cleaned up, the isotopes are still decaying over time, so they won't accumulate unless the Japanese truly screw up and start releasing increasing amounts of isotopes.

Tichy 16y ago
The "time" can be thousands of years, though - maybe you forgot to mention that? Anyway, I don't claim there is a danger to the US.
- DarkShikari 16y ago
  Longer-lived isotopes produce proportionally less radiation. There are no fission isotopes with half-lives between ~1e2 and ~1e4 years.
  - Tichy 16y ago
    Yeah well, they can still be dangerous. Otherwise, why don't they just wait it out in Fukushima? Atoms are very small, so even tiny amounts of matter contain a lot of them. So even if any single atom only emits radiation every couple of years, a tiny lump of matter can emit radiation more often than every couple of years, because there are so many atoms in it.

CoffeeDregs 16y ago

>Has there been a measurable increase in radioactivity in the SF water >supply because of all the discarded banana peels? Two things: I don't put banana peels down the drain; and, more importantly, there hasn't been a measurable increase in the radioactivity of the SF water supply... Rain water has radioactive isotopes in it. We've had a bit of rain, so our water supply has a drop in the bucket of basically-not-contaminated water. Given the short half-lives of most of the isotopes, our water supply will not be contaminated (in any meaningful sense of the word). >And who knows, maybe those isotopes can accumulate? Who knows? Hella people know. Like anyone who's taken basic science classes. They obviously will accumulate and then will radiate and change. Some may concentrate in tissues (e.g. the thyroid), but the starting concentrations are too low to make a difference. >just saying I noticed that you're German, so I hope you don't mind me pointing out that the "just saying" idiom is seen as signaling either ignorance (by asserting something while simultaneously disallowing rebuttal) or humor. As in, "I'm just saying that humans don't much seem like apes". >fundamental differences between Fukushima isotopes (spreading and accumulating), >bananas (seemingly not spreading so much, not sure about accumulating) and the >sun (no isotopes?) I agree. Bananas and the sun will be responsible for loads of deaths; Fukushima will not. The isotopes in bananas are also much worse because you ingest them: radioactive isotopes on the skin can be showered off; ones in your intestines ... not so much... Also, paraphrasing the great Andre the Giant: you keep on using that word "accumulate", but I do not think you know what it means. >Also, the Tacoma bridge was built by engineers, too, and yet it broke down. >Obviously engineers are not the infallible angels that you make them out to be. I'm apparently an "infallible angel" and one of the best aspects of an engineering education is the notion of "tolerances". Nothing is perfect; everything is fallible. If you meet an engineer who thinks they're infallible, you can tell 'em that I said they were doing it wrong.

Tichy 16y ago
"The isotopes in bananas are also much worse because you ingest them: radioactive isotopes on the skin can be showered off; ones in your intestines ... not so much..." Well you can ingest isotopes from nuclear power plants, too. For example the cesium from Chernobyl "accumulates" in mushrooms (I hope you can figure out what Imean by accumulate, don't know a better word for it), even today. In Germany they still shoot wild pigs and mark them unfit for human consumption because because they eat those mushrooms and hence become radioactive. Anyway, nobody has claimed that the isotopes from Fukushima are endangering SF - yet. I apologize for misreading about water supply vs rain. "one of the best aspects of an engineering education is the notion of "tolerances"." People just seem to have different comfort zones. And there is always Murphy's law, as Fukushima demonstrated again (earthquake+Tsunami at the same time).