5 ms·

Petitioning the Government (aka lobbying) is a civil right in the US, guaranteed by the first amendment to the constitution.

willis936 6y ago
The constitution applies to citizens, not organizations. Anti-trust laws exist to protect citizens from organizations that try to break these rules. Amazon is teeing up.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > The constitution applies to citizens No, the Constitution applies to government. But it generally protects people, (not just citizens) which in law included juridical as well as natural persons long before the Constitution.
  - supernova87a 6y ago
    What happens when corporations have more practical daily influence over people's lives than the government? This is a problem. Is it our Achilles heel?
    - missedthecue 6y ago
      I see that as a good thing. Macy's can't force me to do anything. The federal government can. I'd prefer Macy's to have more influence in my day to day life than the business end of a gun.
      - dragonwriter 6y ago
        “Corporations” and “business end of a gun” are not mutually exclusive mechanisms of power.
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      > What happens when corporations have more practical daily influence over people's lives than the government? Impossible, because while corporations are a vehicle through which private individuals act, they are a creation and extension of government power. While the power exerted through corporations is not proximately controlled by people who are particularly accountable to the public for their actions, it is nevertheless government power, and thus the power exerted by corporations can never be greater than that exerted by government, because the former is a subset of the latter.
      - supernova87a 6y ago
        You don't think that a corporation, even now, can exceed the ability of its employees to disagree with what it's doing? Like lobby for legislation that protects (or makes paramount) the corporate interests, even though the people within the corporation might completely object to what is being lobbied for? I think we underestimate how much people are willing to do what their employer requires to continue to be employed, and end up doing things that are totally legal, but not desireable in the long run.
        dragonwriter 6y ago
        > You don't think that a corporation, even now, can exceed the ability of its employees to disagree with what it's doing? I'm not sure why you seem to have interpreted the word “government” in what I said to mean “employees of the corporation”? I assure you that when I said “government”, I meant “government”.
- sb8244 6y ago
  The Supreme Court has determined that companies are granted some rights as citizens have. The first is one of the rights that is protected according to their rulings.
  - willis936 6y ago
    And it is widely believed to be a failure of the justice system. Companies are not expected to behave the same as individuals. They have different motivations and calculate risks differently. If it looks like a dog and barks like a dog, it isn’t a duck.
    - sb8244 6y ago
      You can't say that the first amendment doesn't apply to companies when the law has found that it does. You can say that you believe it shouldn't, but legally today it does.
      - dlp211 6y ago
        The issue is that the first amendment isn't absolute, there are in fact limits, those limits however have been effectively rescinded when it comes to corporations but are still in place for individuals. The disparity of power this affords in our democracy is destined to erode what is left of it.
- otterley 6y ago
  Attorney here!* The relevant part of the First Amendment states (emphasis mine): "...OR the right of the people peaceably to assemble, AND to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." This is preceded by a semicolon, making this clause a compound clause. The right to petition the Government is conferred both on individuals and on assemblies (organizations), and has been since the nation was founded. And this principle has been taken as gospel in law as interpreted by our Courts since the nation's founding. (*IAAL but this is not legal advice. Seek licensed counsel in your jurisdiction if you need legal advice.)
  - scottlocklin 6y ago
    Ain't you actually a golang coder? Fuck corporations: their charters which protect their operators and owners from liability only exist only to serve the public good. Monstrosities like amazon should be destroyed with its board and enablers hanging from live oaks for bribing congressmen and subverting the public good. But hey, that's just my opinion, man.
    - otterley 6y ago
      I do that too! (Long time no see, old friend.)
    - missedthecue 6y ago
      Excuse me? Is the former chairman of Sears on hacker news?
  - baix777 6y ago
    But the type of organization that is a corporation didn't exist when the constitution was written. Much like nuclear arms (and chemical, and biological) didn't exist when the constitution was written so we don't consider them covered by the second amendment.
    - triceratops 6y ago
      Joint stock corporations predate the US constitution.
ardy42 6y ago
> Petitioning the Government (aka lobbying) is a civil right in the US, guaranteed by the first amendment to the constitution. And some people are obviously more equal then others when exercising that right.

willis936 6y ago

The constitution applies to citizens, not organizations. Anti-trust laws exist to protect citizens from organizations that try to break these rules. Amazon is teeing up.

dragonwriter 6y ago
> The constitution applies to citizens No, the Constitution applies to government. But it generally protects people, (not just citizens) which in law included juridical as well as natural persons long before the Constitution.
- supernova87a 6y ago
  What happens when corporations have more practical daily influence over people's lives than the government? This is a problem. Is it our Achilles heel?
  - missedthecue 6y ago
    I see that as a good thing. Macy's can't force me to do anything. The federal government can. I'd prefer Macy's to have more influence in my day to day life than the business end of a gun.
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      “Corporations” and “business end of a gun” are not mutually exclusive mechanisms of power.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > What happens when corporations have more practical daily influence over people's lives than the government? Impossible, because while corporations are a vehicle through which private individuals act, they are a creation and extension of government power. While the power exerted through corporations is not proximately controlled by people who are particularly accountable to the public for their actions, it is nevertheless government power, and thus the power exerted by corporations can never be greater than that exerted by government, because the former is a subset of the latter.
    - supernova87a 6y ago
      You don't think that a corporation, even now, can exceed the ability of its employees to disagree with what it's doing? Like lobby for legislation that protects (or makes paramount) the corporate interests, even though the people within the corporation might completely object to what is being lobbied for? I think we underestimate how much people are willing to do what their employer requires to continue to be employed, and end up doing things that are totally legal, but not desireable in the long run.
      - dragonwriter 6y ago
        > You don't think that a corporation, even now, can exceed the ability of its employees to disagree with what it's doing? I'm not sure why you seem to have interpreted the word “government” in what I said to mean “employees of the corporation”? I assure you that when I said “government”, I meant “government”.
sb8244 6y ago
The Supreme Court has determined that companies are granted some rights as citizens have. The first is one of the rights that is protected according to their rulings.
- willis936 6y ago
  And it is widely believed to be a failure of the justice system. Companies are not expected to behave the same as individuals. They have different motivations and calculate risks differently. If it looks like a dog and barks like a dog, it isn’t a duck.
  - sb8244 6y ago
    You can't say that the first amendment doesn't apply to companies when the law has found that it does. You can say that you believe it shouldn't, but legally today it does.
    - dlp211 6y ago
      The issue is that the first amendment isn't absolute, there are in fact limits, those limits however have been effectively rescinded when it comes to corporations but are still in place for individuals. The disparity of power this affords in our democracy is destined to erode what is left of it.
otterley 6y ago
Attorney here!* The relevant part of the First Amendment states (emphasis mine): "...OR the right of the people peaceably to assemble, AND to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." This is preceded by a semicolon, making this clause a compound clause. The right to petition the Government is conferred both on individuals and on assemblies (organizations), and has been since the nation was founded. And this principle has been taken as gospel in law as interpreted by our Courts since the nation's founding. (*IAAL but this is not legal advice. Seek licensed counsel in your jurisdiction if you need legal advice.)
- scottlocklin 6y ago
  Ain't you actually a golang coder? Fuck corporations: their charters which protect their operators and owners from liability only exist only to serve the public good. Monstrosities like amazon should be destroyed with its board and enablers hanging from live oaks for bribing congressmen and subverting the public good. But hey, that's just my opinion, man.
  - otterley 6y ago
    I do that too! (Long time no see, old friend.)
  - missedthecue 6y ago
    Excuse me? Is the former chairman of Sears on hacker news?
- baix777 6y ago
  But the type of organization that is a corporation didn't exist when the constitution was written. Much like nuclear arms (and chemical, and biological) didn't exist when the constitution was written so we don't consider them covered by the second amendment.
  - triceratops 6y ago
    Joint stock corporations predate the US constitution.

ardy42 6y ago

> Petitioning the Government (aka lobbying) is a civil right in the US, guaranteed by the first amendment to the constitution. And some people are obviously more equal then others when exercising that right.