4 ms·

As a person who hires software engineers in Australia, it's hard for me to understand this perspective. The last few times I've tried to hire a junior I've rece

by _AzMoo 6y ago

As a person who hires software engineers in Australia, it's hard for me to understand this perspective. The last few times I've tried to hire a junior I've received very little interest from new Australian graduates. The vast majority of applications come from Indian migrants, not local graduates.

gonzo41 6y ago
Out of curiosity what industry do you work/program in?
- _AzMoo 6y ago
  Retail.
Khaine 6y ago
That is my perspective as well, recruiting in a field that is tech adjacent. Practically everyone who applied for vacant roles were either Indian migrants, or people here on visas.
- h0l0cube 6y ago
  For what compensation?
  - Khaine 6y ago
    I'm speaking on my own behalf, and not representing my employer, so I don't want to provide too much information. As I understand it, based on what HR tell me, for the industry we are in we offer at the low to mid end of market rates on salary, and make it up in performance pay (bonus).
    - lowdose 6y ago
      I would ask your HR department for a clear example of a company at the low to mid end of the market rates on salary. And which market i.e. city, state, national or global assuming the entire software industry.
      - Khaine 6y ago
        I'm not in the software industry. We have lots of movement between the main players in our industry and so salary ranges while opaque are broadly known to most people in the industry
- hiram112 6y ago
  Probably because you've flooded the market with Indians on visas, who've pushed down wages and working conditions, just like in the US (and now Canada). Smart students don't want to work in an industry where the working environment gets crappier every year if you're not in the 5% working at FAANG. I had a similar experience when I graduated over a decade ago. My first gig was working for one of the big Indian offshorers - I actually spent a year in India, which was interesting. Regardless, after a few years on similar crappy contracts with over-worked, poorly compensated, indentured servants from India, who were tied to their employer via an H1B visa, I came very close to quitting software for good and going to law school. Luckily, I found an industry that cannot use visa workers and have been able to make a successful career with working conditions and pay that's fair. The visa system has turned most software gigs in the US into a very bad deal where ageism, long hours, lower and lower pay, and general working conditions get worse each year. Then they wonder why smart kids in college decide to go into law and finance, instead of STEM.
ACow_Adonis 6y ago
Its a bit meaningless without posting the salary/job/location. For the last 10 years I've been in data science/analytics in capital cities, and i'll get waves of local masters/PhDs applying for every job. But if its pays poorly, and consists of IT/database management/code-monkeying another app/help-desk, then one understands why one mainly gets immigrants applying (because they're desperate for the job, are relatively unlikely to be discriminated against, and they meet the qualifications whereas australians can get better wages elsewhere for easier positions). Honestly, I'm a bit dumbstruck by notions of a shortage of tech supply in australia. Comparatively we've got very little on the demand side, outside of a handful of big-corp IT departments (who have off-shored a lot of work to china/phillipines/india/etc) and IME we often pay relatively poorly...and government policy in terms of security/IP/storage/privacy etc is 'relatively' hostile towards the tech sector and driving firms offshore...
MaximumYComb 6y ago
Can I ask what sort of salary range and work you typically offer? It could be many graduates see the big US numbers and expect similar.
- roganartu 6y ago
  It’s not even just that they expect similar, it’s that they can pretty easily get it if they are ok living in America for a while. The E3 visa is similar to the H1b but it’s far easier to get because it’s Australian only (and now Irish too, iirc) and we only use ~3k of the 10k/yr quota. Getting one simply requires a standard 4 year degree, of which Software Engineering qualifies (what most institutions call the Comp Sci equivalent-ish degree in Aus) and a 5 min “interview” at a US consulate somewhere outside the US. Source: Am Australian that moved to the US temporarily to work on an E3 because Australian tech companies simply don’t pay competitively.
  - blaser-waffle 6y ago
    I did a working holiday in the Oz to do fiber optic network stuff for the NBN. Applied to Amazon and one or two others (Telstra, et al) in Australia on a lark. I still get hit up by them occasionally. Eventually I decided to bite, and responded back to a recruiter. "Why are you contacting me, I'm not in the Oz" The answer was along the lines of the parent comment: "good technical hires go to London or San Fran."
- _AzMoo 6y ago
  We're working on python web backends and react frontends for a large automotive corporation. The salary is average for our area, but like most we don't advertise with a salary and still don't get much interest. I've had an ad out now for a week and have received < 10 applications.
  - MaximumYComb 6y ago
    How do you have solid grasp on what the average is? I googled "Python web salaries Melbourne" and the answer came back at the top from Indeed at $750 per WEEK. I wouldn't apply for something paying $39000 per year in a city that is incredibly expensive. Payscale[.]com had it at $73k for Python (not just web) as an average, still not that high but you should expect a few applicants.

by _AzMoo 6y ago

gonzo41 6y ago

Out of curiosity what industry do you work/program in?

_AzMoo 6y ago
Retail.

Khaine 6y ago

That is my perspective as well, recruiting in a field that is tech adjacent. Practically everyone who applied for vacant roles were either Indian migrants, or people here on visas.

h0l0cube 6y ago
For what compensation?
- Khaine 6y ago
  I'm speaking on my own behalf, and not representing my employer, so I don't want to provide too much information. As I understand it, based on what HR tell me, for the industry we are in we offer at the low to mid end of market rates on salary, and make it up in performance pay (bonus).
  - lowdose 6y ago
    I would ask your HR department for a clear example of a company at the low to mid end of the market rates on salary. And which market i.e. city, state, national or global assuming the entire software industry.
    - Khaine 6y ago
      I'm not in the software industry. We have lots of movement between the main players in our industry and so salary ranges while opaque are broadly known to most people in the industry
hiram112 6y ago
Probably because you've flooded the market with Indians on visas, who've pushed down wages and working conditions, just like in the US (and now Canada). Smart students don't want to work in an industry where the working environment gets crappier every year if you're not in the 5% working at FAANG. I had a similar experience when I graduated over a decade ago. My first gig was working for one of the big Indian offshorers - I actually spent a year in India, which was interesting. Regardless, after a few years on similar crappy contracts with over-worked, poorly compensated, indentured servants from India, who were tied to their employer via an H1B visa, I came very close to quitting software for good and going to law school. Luckily, I found an industry that cannot use visa workers and have been able to make a successful career with working conditions and pay that's fair. The visa system has turned most software gigs in the US into a very bad deal where ageism, long hours, lower and lower pay, and general working conditions get worse each year. Then they wonder why smart kids in college decide to go into law and finance, instead of STEM.

ACow_Adonis 6y ago

Its a bit meaningless without posting the salary/job/location. For the last 10 years I've been in data science/analytics in capital cities, and i'll get waves of local masters/PhDs applying for every job. But if its pays poorly, and consists of IT/database management/code-monkeying another app/help-desk, then one understands why one mainly gets immigrants applying (because they're desperate for the job, are relatively unlikely to be discriminated against, and they meet the qualifications whereas australians can get better wages elsewhere for easier positions). Honestly, I'm a bit dumbstruck by notions of a shortage of tech supply in australia. Comparatively we've got very little on the demand side, outside of a handful of big-corp IT departments (who have off-shored a lot of work to china/phillipines/india/etc) and IME we often pay relatively poorly...and government policy in terms of security/IP/storage/privacy etc is 'relatively' hostile towards the tech sector and driving firms offshore...

MaximumYComb 6y ago

Can I ask what sort of salary range and work you typically offer? It could be many graduates see the big US numbers and expect similar.

roganartu 6y ago
It’s not even just that they expect similar, it’s that they can pretty easily get it if they are ok living in America for a while. The E3 visa is similar to the H1b but it’s far easier to get because it’s Australian only (and now Irish too, iirc) and we only use ~3k of the 10k/yr quota. Getting one simply requires a standard 4 year degree, of which Software Engineering qualifies (what most institutions call the Comp Sci equivalent-ish degree in Aus) and a 5 min “interview” at a US consulate somewhere outside the US. Source: Am Australian that moved to the US temporarily to work on an E3 because Australian tech companies simply don’t pay competitively.
- blaser-waffle 6y ago
  I did a working holiday in the Oz to do fiber optic network stuff for the NBN. Applied to Amazon and one or two others (Telstra, et al) in Australia on a lark. I still get hit up by them occasionally. Eventually I decided to bite, and responded back to a recruiter. "Why are you contacting me, I'm not in the Oz" The answer was along the lines of the parent comment: "good technical hires go to London or San Fran."
_AzMoo 6y ago
We're working on python web backends and react frontends for a large automotive corporation. The salary is average for our area, but like most we don't advertise with a salary and still don't get much interest. I've had an ad out now for a week and have received < 10 applications.
- MaximumYComb 6y ago
  How do you have solid grasp on what the average is? I googled "Python web salaries Melbourne" and the answer came back at the top from Indeed at $750 per WEEK. I wouldn't apply for something paying $39000 per year in a city that is incredibly expensive. Payscale[.]com had it at $73k for Python (not just web) as an average, still not that high but you should expect a few applicants.