11 ms·

If I were a large company with money I would simply ask all qualified applicants if they would be willing to work on a small part of a real project as a contrac

by kanobo 6y ago

If I were a large company with money I would simply ask all qualified applicants if they would be willing to work on a small part of a real project as a contractor with the possibility of getting hired. Applicants get paid for their time, productivity is achieved, jobs might be offered, everybody is happy.

kansface 6y ago
You would never hire a senior engineer like this (or anyone who is currently employed), but maybe it has its place for high risk hires.
- madamelic 6y ago
  You can and it happens. source: work at a place that does this
druidmaster 6y ago
if i ruled the world
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Johnny555 6y ago
The most qualified applicants already have a full time job and probably don't want to take a second job.
matthewowen 6y ago
I have a small child and a full time job. It's really not very feasible for me to make time to do a "real project", paid or not. Especially if I'm interviewing with multiple companies.
- kanobo 6y ago
  Yea, I didn't consider that. My thinking was that the hiring process is such a time suck that the applicant should at least paid for those 'take home tests' and 'in person interviews' everywhere in that list ... but yea I'll go back to the drawing board.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- perl4ever 6y ago
  It seems that you and a lot of people look at hiring as a zero sum game, because there can only be one standard. If it doesn't include someone, but changing it to include them would exclude you, then tough cookies. That's a very depressing outlook.
  - nonbirithm 6y ago
    This so many times. I prefer take home projects as opposed to whiteboarding, because my personal situation better allows for it - no wife or children, preference for building things, no NDA at my current job, and so forth. For me specifically I would prefer take home projects followed by a debriefing where I explain my design decisions over solving whiteboard problems. But that's just me. Why can't there be multiple accepted ways of interviewing instead of forcing everyone through a whiteboard gate, if whiteboarding isn't the best way for you to prove your competency? At least we have lists of companies with different hiring processes as in TFA, so there is a small amount of choice. But we're still dependent on the goodwill of companies to make their hiring processes more tolerable.
NikolaNovak 6y ago
Sure - That would neatly eliminate majority of qualified candidates :-) Very few people who are successfully employed would take a risk / have a luxury to forsake their certain employment for an extremely short term contract (with all the registration, taxation, regulation etc headache this implies!) and extremely limited chance of gainful employment. (it's perspectives like these that make me realize how much of a grouchy old man I am and have always been - always being a buzzkill by thinking things through next 3 steps! :P)
- kanobo 6y ago
  True, true. In my poor defense I was imagining all candidates as identical versions of myself in a bubble and never considered taxes or anybody else's lifestyle.
- madamelic 6y ago
  >with all the registration, taxation, regulation etc headache this implies! It's not if you are in the US. You will get a 1099 from where you worked, you write it on your 1040 and include the 1099 with your taxes if I recall from when I was an independent contractor for a while. It takes maybe like 10 minutes extra and 1099-ing is incredibly common nowadays (unfortunately) so not a super weird case. And it's not regulation. You don't need to worry about anything besides getting the 1099 like you would your W2s and appending it.
  - pandaman 6y ago
    What if you get a 1099 from another state? Multiple states? Don't you need to file taxes with those states now? (Genuinely curious, I am not a CPA so I really don't know). What if you don't have any other 1099s (so you have to pay self-employment tax just because of that one interview, at least I had once when my moving expenses were paid with a 1099). Not even getting into possible illegal work for the candidates on work visas.
    - dabockster 6y ago
      My city considers 1099s as businesses due to some shady contractors in the past. So my local government would try to collect a chunk of any contractor earnings (with that chunk getting huge if you didn't register with them first).
Someone1234 6y ago
That only works if the workload is low enough to do with a full time job, potentially out of state. It is a good idea, but nobody is going to be quitting their current job to be a contractor with a job MAYBE attainable. It remains me a lot of retail seasonal employees who work their butts off to MAYBE get a full time position. I'd also want there to be a clear decision-point (i.e. it isn't a way to get you to be an indefinite contractor, they make a hire/no hire decision within some set timeframe or at the end of the current work).
- kanobo 6y ago
  I don't think quitting is necessary to work on an unrelated side project. Many of the companies on the list ask you to do a either a take home project, test, or tele-coding - real work that doesn't guarantee a job - how does getting paid for your work suddenly make it different?
htrp 6y ago
best you'll get is 2 hours for a takehome...
rockinghigh 6y ago
It would increase the barrier to entry, reduce the pool of potential candidates, and increase the load on HR and hiring managers. Most candidates already have a job and may not want to start contracting for multiple companies in addition to their current job. This would also exclude candidates on a work visa like H1-B.
pandaman 6y ago
This proposal comes up in every interviewing discussion on HN. Apart from the usual rebuttals (you are generally hiring only from unemployed people pool this way), here is a fresh one - this opens your company's codebase for reading and writing (even supervised but, still) to anyone. If you already open-source your code it's not a problem but otherwise you don't want random people looking into your code due to: patents, trade secrets, possible exploits to name a few reasons.
- kanobo 6y ago
  All large companies already have large contractor workforces that work on the non-critical products, I don't really see how that's different from employing highly qualified candidates with probably better resumes and referrals than those who are employed at 3rd party contractor companies.
  - pandaman 6y ago
    Contractors are ran through background checks and bound by various NDAs and the literal contracts. Not to mention that the mentioned 3d parties are financially liable for the damages their contractors may cause.
jmchuster 6y ago
That effectively eliminates from the pool any one who currently has a job?

by kanobo 6y ago

kansface 6y ago

You would never hire a senior engineer like this (or anyone who is currently employed), but maybe it has its place for high risk hires.

madamelic 6y ago
You can and it happens. source: work at a place that does this

druidmaster 6y ago

if i ruled the world

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

Johnny555 6y ago

The most qualified applicants already have a full time job and probably don't want to take a second job.

matthewowen 6y ago

I have a small child and a full time job. It's really not very feasible for me to make time to do a "real project", paid or not. Especially if I'm interviewing with multiple companies.

kanobo 6y ago
Yea, I didn't consider that. My thinking was that the hiring process is such a time suck that the applicant should at least paid for those 'take home tests' and 'in person interviews' everywhere in that list ... but yea I'll go back to the drawing board.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
perl4ever 6y ago
It seems that you and a lot of people look at hiring as a zero sum game, because there can only be one standard. If it doesn't include someone, but changing it to include them would exclude you, then tough cookies. That's a very depressing outlook.
- nonbirithm 6y ago
  This so many times. I prefer take home projects as opposed to whiteboarding, because my personal situation better allows for it - no wife or children, preference for building things, no NDA at my current job, and so forth. For me specifically I would prefer take home projects followed by a debriefing where I explain my design decisions over solving whiteboard problems. But that's just me. Why can't there be multiple accepted ways of interviewing instead of forcing everyone through a whiteboard gate, if whiteboarding isn't the best way for you to prove your competency? At least we have lists of companies with different hiring processes as in TFA, so there is a small amount of choice. But we're still dependent on the goodwill of companies to make their hiring processes more tolerable.

NikolaNovak 6y ago

Sure - That would neatly eliminate majority of qualified candidates :-) Very few people who are successfully employed would take a risk / have a luxury to forsake their certain employment for an extremely short term contract (with all the registration, taxation, regulation etc headache this implies!) and extremely limited chance of gainful employment. (it's perspectives like these that make me realize how much of a grouchy old man I am and have always been - always being a buzzkill by thinking things through next 3 steps! :P)

kanobo 6y ago
True, true. In my poor defense I was imagining all candidates as identical versions of myself in a bubble and never considered taxes or anybody else's lifestyle.
madamelic 6y ago
>with all the registration, taxation, regulation etc headache this implies! It's not if you are in the US. You will get a 1099 from where you worked, you write it on your 1040 and include the 1099 with your taxes if I recall from when I was an independent contractor for a while. It takes maybe like 10 minutes extra and 1099-ing is incredibly common nowadays (unfortunately) so not a super weird case. And it's not regulation. You don't need to worry about anything besides getting the 1099 like you would your W2s and appending it.
- pandaman 6y ago
  What if you get a 1099 from another state? Multiple states? Don't you need to file taxes with those states now? (Genuinely curious, I am not a CPA so I really don't know). What if you don't have any other 1099s (so you have to pay self-employment tax just because of that one interview, at least I had once when my moving expenses were paid with a 1099). Not even getting into possible illegal work for the candidates on work visas.
  - dabockster 6y ago
    My city considers 1099s as businesses due to some shady contractors in the past. So my local government would try to collect a chunk of any contractor earnings (with that chunk getting huge if you didn't register with them first).

Someone1234 6y ago

That only works if the workload is low enough to do with a full time job, potentially out of state. It is a good idea, but nobody is going to be quitting their current job to be a contractor with a job MAYBE attainable. It remains me a lot of retail seasonal employees who work their butts off to MAYBE get a full time position. I'd also want there to be a clear decision-point (i.e. it isn't a way to get you to be an indefinite contractor, they make a hire/no hire decision within some set timeframe or at the end of the current work).

kanobo 6y ago
I don't think quitting is necessary to work on an unrelated side project. Many of the companies on the list ask you to do a either a take home project, test, or tele-coding - real work that doesn't guarantee a job - how does getting paid for your work suddenly make it different?

htrp 6y ago

best you'll get is 2 hours for a takehome...

rockinghigh 6y ago

It would increase the barrier to entry, reduce the pool of potential candidates, and increase the load on HR and hiring managers. Most candidates already have a job and may not want to start contracting for multiple companies in addition to their current job. This would also exclude candidates on a work visa like H1-B.

pandaman 6y ago

This proposal comes up in every interviewing discussion on HN. Apart from the usual rebuttals (you are generally hiring only from unemployed people pool this way), here is a fresh one - this opens your company's codebase for reading and writing (even supervised but, still) to anyone. If you already open-source your code it's not a problem but otherwise you don't want random people looking into your code due to: patents, trade secrets, possible exploits to name a few reasons.

kanobo 6y ago
All large companies already have large contractor workforces that work on the non-critical products, I don't really see how that's different from employing highly qualified candidates with probably better resumes and referrals than those who are employed at 3rd party contractor companies.
- pandaman 6y ago
  Contractors are ran through background checks and bound by various NDAs and the literal contracts. Not to mention that the mentioned 3d parties are financially liable for the damages their contractors may cause.

jmchuster 6y ago

That effectively eliminates from the pool any one who currently has a job?