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Downloading it right now! But... > Can I connect to the Internet? No. For what it's worth, the web was quite different 30 years ago - and you wouldn't be able

Downloading it right now! But... > Can I connect to the Internet? No. For what it's worth, the web was quite different 30 years ago - and you wouldn't be able to open even Google. However, Internet Explorer and Netscape are installed [...] If IE and Netscape are available I'd assume this would be alright, unless it's some Electron thingy going on... how's that so?

guerrilla 6y ago
This may be helpful [1]. It's not exactly modern but far more up-to-date than IE and NS. Last updated 2014 I think [2]. [1]. https://www.floodgap.com/software/classilla/ https://www.floodgap.com/software/classilla/ [2]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classilla https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classilla
- Lammy 6y ago
  Classilla requires a PowerPC and CarbonLib, and this machine is an emulated 68040. The best browser you can get is probably iCab, but even then it won't display many modern pages. Think of how many sites require TLS 1.2 to do anything at all.
  - userbinator 6y ago
    Think of how many sites require TLS 1.2 to do anything at all. ...and then think of how there's no theoretical reason why TLS 1.2, 1.3 or any crypto, really, won't work on such a processor; the practical reason is that no one has really spent the effort to create/port such an implementation.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - anthk 6y ago
      > won't work on such a processor; Eh, I think SSH clients for OS8 existed. http://www.heilancoo.net/MacCVSClient/MacCVSClientDoc/ssh-classic.html http://www.heilancoo.net/MacCVSClient/MacCVSClientDoc/ssh-cl... http://linuxmafia.com/ssh/macos.html http://linuxmafia.com/ssh/macos.html
mattl 6y ago
Seems like the author is conflating the web and the Internet?
duskwuff 6y ago
I suspect the real problem is that implementing SLiRP in Javascript was more work than the author wanted to take on. The emulator this is based on (Basilisk II) does support networking, FWIW.
sbierwagen 6y ago
Certainly they can be installed on the VM, doesn't mean that the VM has network drivers installed. Separately, very old browsers only talk HTTP 1.0 (No Host: header support, so they can't connect to non-dedicated servers) and no modern ciphersuites. (Can't connect to HSTS servers that disallow insecure ciphers)
- anthk 6y ago
  But they support Gopher. And Clazilla exists.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- hnlmorg 6y ago
  HTTP 1.1 was released before Mac OS 8 so I'd be surprised if the installed browsers didn't have header support (shared hosting was already common when I used to support Mac OS 8 systems and those users certainly never had a problem). TLS would be a bigger issue at the protocol layer and with the web moving to HTTPS everywhere, you'd expect a great deal of sites not to load. On the rendering side, HTML 5, CSS 3 etc weren't around. In fact I don't even think HTML 4 was around (or if it was, it would have been extremely new so still unlikely to be well supported -- remember how long it took browsers to pass the ACID tests?). Back then it was still common to use framesets and tables for formatting. Ironically, you'd probably get a better experience elinks or lynx.
- rzzzt 6y ago
  There was a project floating around recently that rendered the website as an image using a modern browser backend, transmitted it back to any old browser (was demonstrated using IE5, I think), and also mapped mouse clicks to the appropriate locations in the document so the page remained more or less interactive. The UI looked like an extra navigation bar. Can't remember the name, though (and it's also hard to search for). edit: browser history to the rescue, it's https://github.com/ttalvitie/browservice https://github.com/ttalvitie/browservice
anthk 6y ago
You could be surprised on which browsers does Google still work. It will work under IE5 and Windows 98 for example.
- sbierwagen 6y ago
  Really? When was that last tested? I wouldn't expect google.com in 2020 to support SSL2.0, what with MITM downgrade attacks.
  - toast0 6y ago
    They might use user-agent sniffing and decide not to redirect ie that old to https?
    - sbierwagen 6y ago
      If you're already doing a MITM attack, then you can edit the user agent string as well. Anything in the initial unsecure HTTP request is fair game.
      - toast0 6y ago
        If you're doing a MITM attack, Google's behavior doesn't matter; you can handle all the http requests and send them to Google (or whoever) as https and fix up all the internal links etc. If the user's browser is willing to go to google.com with http, it's probably ancient (no preloaded HSTS lists). If you're actually on an ancient browser, Google's behavior does matter --- if they send you to https and don't work with ancient SSL/TLS stacks, then you can't use their products. For anything with a login, that seems reasonable, but for search, it seems pretty useful to allow HTTP for ancient browsers, because it's very hard to use the web without search.
  - anthk 6y ago
    A few months ago under a VM, with Qemu and w98se + IE5. Google worked, but any further link failed, as expected.
dylan604 6y ago
i wonder what sites like APOD would do. they have intentionally left that site as a simple HTML1.0 layout to not wreck compatibility

guerrilla 6y ago

This may be helpful [1]. It's not exactly modern but far more up-to-date than IE and NS. Last updated 2014 I think [2]. [1]. https://www.floodgap.com/software/classilla/ https://www.floodgap.com/software/classilla/ [2]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classilla https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classilla

Lammy 6y ago
Classilla requires a PowerPC and CarbonLib, and this machine is an emulated 68040. The best browser you can get is probably iCab, but even then it won't display many modern pages. Think of how many sites require TLS 1.2 to do anything at all.
- userbinator 6y ago
  Think of how many sites require TLS 1.2 to do anything at all. ...and then think of how there's no theoretical reason why TLS 1.2, 1.3 or any crypto, really, won't work on such a processor; the practical reason is that no one has really spent the effort to create/port such an implementation.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - anthk 6y ago
    > won't work on such a processor; Eh, I think SSH clients for OS8 existed. http://www.heilancoo.net/MacCVSClient/MacCVSClientDoc/ssh-classic.html http://www.heilancoo.net/MacCVSClient/MacCVSClientDoc/ssh-cl... http://linuxmafia.com/ssh/macos.html http://linuxmafia.com/ssh/macos.html

mattl 6y ago

Seems like the author is conflating the web and the Internet?

duskwuff 6y ago

I suspect the real problem is that implementing SLiRP in Javascript was more work than the author wanted to take on. The emulator this is based on (Basilisk II) does support networking, FWIW.

sbierwagen 6y ago

Certainly they can be installed on the VM, doesn't mean that the VM has network drivers installed. Separately, very old browsers only talk HTTP 1.0 (No Host: header support, so they can't connect to non-dedicated servers) and no modern ciphersuites. (Can't connect to HSTS servers that disallow insecure ciphers)

anthk 6y ago
But they support Gopher. And Clazilla exists.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
hnlmorg 6y ago
HTTP 1.1 was released before Mac OS 8 so I'd be surprised if the installed browsers didn't have header support (shared hosting was already common when I used to support Mac OS 8 systems and those users certainly never had a problem). TLS would be a bigger issue at the protocol layer and with the web moving to HTTPS everywhere, you'd expect a great deal of sites not to load. On the rendering side, HTML 5, CSS 3 etc weren't around. In fact I don't even think HTML 4 was around (or if it was, it would have been extremely new so still unlikely to be well supported -- remember how long it took browsers to pass the ACID tests?). Back then it was still common to use framesets and tables for formatting. Ironically, you'd probably get a better experience elinks or lynx.
rzzzt 6y ago
There was a project floating around recently that rendered the website as an image using a modern browser backend, transmitted it back to any old browser (was demonstrated using IE5, I think), and also mapped mouse clicks to the appropriate locations in the document so the page remained more or less interactive. The UI looked like an extra navigation bar. Can't remember the name, though (and it's also hard to search for). edit: browser history to the rescue, it's https://github.com/ttalvitie/browservice https://github.com/ttalvitie/browservice

anthk 6y ago

You could be surprised on which browsers does Google still work. It will work under IE5 and Windows 98 for example.

sbierwagen 6y ago
Really? When was that last tested? I wouldn't expect google.com in 2020 to support SSL2.0, what with MITM downgrade attacks.
- toast0 6y ago
  They might use user-agent sniffing and decide not to redirect ie that old to https?
  - sbierwagen 6y ago
    If you're already doing a MITM attack, then you can edit the user agent string as well. Anything in the initial unsecure HTTP request is fair game.
    - toast0 6y ago
      If you're doing a MITM attack, Google's behavior doesn't matter; you can handle all the http requests and send them to Google (or whoever) as https and fix up all the internal links etc. If the user's browser is willing to go to google.com with http, it's probably ancient (no preloaded HSTS lists). If you're actually on an ancient browser, Google's behavior does matter --- if they send you to https and don't work with ancient SSL/TLS stacks, then you can't use their products. For anything with a login, that seems reasonable, but for search, it seems pretty useful to allow HTTP for ancient browsers, because it's very hard to use the web without search.
- anthk 6y ago
  A few months ago under a VM, with Qemu and w98se + IE5. Google worked, but any further link failed, as expected.

dylan604 6y ago

i wonder what sites like APOD would do. they have intentionally left that site as a simple HTML1.0 layout to not wreck compatibility