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Doctor advises only using soap on your hands and nowhere else
- TheSpiceIsLife 6y agoI'm a naturopathy by certification, I don't practice because I prefer to work in my trade. Four years studying in a formal capacity, Western Herbal Medicine, Clinical Nutrition (diet and supplements), and enough anatomy & physiology and pathophysiology to be able to converse with experts in the field and keep up, and the resulting life-long passion to seek out and critically analyse new information relating to chemistry, biochemistry, neurology, immunology, etc etc etc. I have fond memories of one lecturer always saying "don't put anything on your skin you wouldn't put in your mouth and swallow". Your skin is permeable, the fats and oils the skin exude are part of it's protective systems, and, as the article points out, the regular surface of the skin is a veritable smorgasbord of commensal organisms. We should probably stop treating out bodies as fundamentally broken. They've gotten us this far, and, more generally, you don't see other animals obsessed with hygiene. Although I did recently see a video of a rat soaping itself up for a shower, so there's that I guess.
- Apocryphon 6y agoAnimals don't wear clothing, so already we're starting with a default that's different from nature. It's much easier to trap in sweat, oils, and other byproducts if you're rubbing up against fabrics all day.
- swinglock 6y agoAlso few animals sweat like humans do.
- TheSpiceIsLife 6y agoSure. There are soap alternatives that don't cut the oils the same way. My favourite is rolled oats in the end of a stocking cut and tied off. The stocking is a mild abrasive and the oats exude a milky substance when wet and it feels quite pleasant. Worth nothing I didn't say *"don't shower or bathe".
- caturopath 6y ago> don't put anything on your skin you wouldn't put in your mouth and swallow I'd ask this lecturer to join me this weekend as I wade in a giardia-infested river, toes feeling the silt and mud, but I'm a bit of a prude and I can only assume they're naked. Myself, I'll not hesitate to put on some sunscreen.
- TheSpiceIsLife 6y agoRight. Obviously I'm not talking about that. And, sure, I've got for multiple multi-year periods without wearing sunscreen, though I do when I want to expose my skin, of course. Also, the site guidelines ask us to: Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- rootusrootus 6y ago> you don't see other animals obsessed with hygiene Ha, tell that to my cats!
- TheSpiceIsLife 6y agoHaha, good one. Yeah, I live with a cat, they're extremely clean creatures in that sense. He does have somewhat less of a collection of personal hygiene products than the average westerner, though ;)
- tatersolid 6y ago> Yeah, I live with a cat, they're extremely clean creatures in that sense. My two cats lick their own anuses multiple times per day. Not. Clean.
- TheSpiceIsLife 6y agoYeah, and when you're not home they're walking all over the tables and bench tops. Cats can carry toxoplasmosis. But, generally speaking, humans and other animals can cohabitate to quite a degree and nothing much comes of it in the general case.
- kps 6y agoSoap doesn't actually taste that bad. (Disclaimer: I like cilantro.)
- TheSpiceIsLife 6y agoI tend to agree, and also like coriander as we call it around these parts.
- Gabriel_Martin 6y agoMore information about that rat, which adds some unfortunate context to it. https://twitter.com/JanFreedman/status/958325784401375232 https://twitter.com/JanFreedman/status/958325784401375232
- eczema_haver 6y agoI have eczema, and at one point it got so severe from taking (too-)hot showers, that I could hardly sleep for weeks because of the discomfort. Out of desperation I gave up showering altogether so that I could heal. I eventually realized that I didn't really smell. After my skin healed I didn't resume showering. That was about four years ago. I've never had anyone (including my partner whom I live with) tell me I smell under normal circumstances (in fact I asked my partner directly), nor that my skin looks or feels oily or abnormal in any way. Same with my hair. I do smell for a few hours right after vigorous exercise or something, but it's nothing a little deodorant and a fresh shirt can't fix. I don't know if everybody is this way - I'm sure it varies a lot by body chemistry - but for me at least there have been no downsides. In addition to saving time, I have to think I've saved an enormous amount of water. From the article, it sounds like I may be healthier for it too.
- layoutIfNeeded 6y agocan confirm. I was suffering from atopic dermatitis for years, to the point where my bedsheets were covered with bloodstains every night due to unconsciously scratching my eczema while asleep. I was prescribed topical steroids to control it during flareups. Then I moved from home and stopped daily showering, and the eczema resolved by itself. No lotions, no steroids, no bathing solutions! Imagine my relief. Since then I’m only showering twice a week with plain water (except the groin region where I use a bit of soap) and have been fine.
- eczema_haver 6y agoI do have to wonder if part of it is the way my skin is extra-eager to shed cells on its own (due to the eczema). That could be functioning as a kind of "automatic shower". Which would explain why some people with skin issues can do this without problems, but not everyone can. That's pure speculation though.
- k__ 6y agoI have eczema and only shower every 2-4 days, depending on the season :(
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- jhloa2 6y agoThis is certainly an interesting perspective. I have a friend that refuses to wear sunscreen because he feels like the risk to his health from rubbing all the "unknown chemicals" into his skin outweigh the health risk of skin cancer. While I still use sunscreen, his perspective did get me thinking about all the unknowns I've introduced into my body through the skin. Logically, it makes sense that our skin can adapt to be less oily and odorous with taking a break from using a lot of soap. I've been only using shampoo to wash my hair every other time I shower and I've noticed that my hair now seems to take longer to get oily. It's basically the same concept as using soap on the rest of our skin.
- swinglock 6y agoThere may be exceptions but washing your hair less frequently will absolutely make it last longer between washes and subsequently wear out less.
- Element_ 6y agoYou can buy mineral based sun screens that don't contain the chemicals found in traditional brands. They aren't as user friendly as the traditional types but they are popular among surfers and others power users of sunscreen.
- totetsu 6y agoI find brands like "invisible zinc" and "oasis sun" to have good easy to spread mineral products. Also you can just get uv blocking sleeves and head covers if you're going to be out all day.
- stx 6y ago> I have a friend that refuses to wear sunscreen because he feels like the risk to his health from rubbing all the "unknown chemicals" into his skin outweigh the health risk of skin cancer. I do wear sunscreen at the beach or if I am going to be outside in direct sunlight all day. I do question however if the risks posed by what is in sunscreen outweigh the protective benefit if you put it all over your body every day. I am not a doctor or expert in this so don't listen to me.
- m0zg 6y agoThis "doctor" has never been in the same room with a 15 year old who hasn't showered for a week. The "body odor" of that magnitude should be prohibited under the Geneva Convention.
- throw0101a 6y agoShowering with just water is fine. Excessive use of soaps—not to be confused with cleansers—is where problems can arise. As is the use of deodorants and antiperspirants.
- monktastic1 6y agoThe article does not say that we should not shower. Water (especially warm water) by itself does a lot. Also, he is not a "doctor"; he is a doctor.
- Tarq0n 6y agoDoctors are required to get a doctorate for their career. This has two major consequences. For one, research standards are lower because many doctors are only doing it because it's mandatory, and there's a lot more people doing simple medical research than in most other areas of inquiry. This causes a lot of underqualified opinions to surface for prestigious-sounding doctors. As always, be skeptical of claims that go against consensus. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
- maxerickson 6y agoIn the US, an MD does not require doctoral research, it's all education and training.
- mumblemumble 6y agoIs there a medical consensus on this? The closest I've heard to anything on the subject is that a dermatologist once advised me to try not using soap on my face as a possible acne treatment.
- antibctrlsoap 6y agoShould you wash your face with antibacterial soap? No, because the microbiome (helpful bacteria) around the eyes prevents conjunctivitis. And killing off those beneficial bacteria clears the way for far more undesireable bacteria. Yes, germs are bad.
- mumblemumble 6y agoIn the USA, is antibacterial soap even a live issue, since the FDA banned basically all the chemicals used to make it about 5 years back? I would assume that at this point the ingredients they're using don't actually work (except perhaps in test tubes and at extreme concentrations) and it's largely just a hollow marketing term.
- antibctrlsoap 6y ago
- Semiapies 6y ago"It’s one of the few remaining things for which we feel fine telling someone that they’re gross" Nice variation on the old the last acceptable prejudice... rhetoric.
- kanobo 6y agoThe problem with humans is that we like to take things to the extremes when we find out new information. Microbes are bad? Let's use anti-bacterial soap everywhere. Microbes are good? Let's not use soap anymore. The best advice is to live life in moderation, use some soap if you have a dirty job and don't use soap just because you're bored. Play in the sand and eat a variety of things and you'll be fine.
- analog31 6y agoAn old favorite quote: "Everything in moderation, including moderation."
- rossdavidh 6y agoHaving had some problems with eczema a few years ago, I did start using soap on only the smelliest parts of the body a few years back, and it helped a great deal compared to the "lather up entire body in shower every day" strategy before that. I don't know that I'd agree with "hands and nowhere else", but I do think we have too little information on our skin microbiome and how it works (or malfunctions) to say we know what we're doing in regards to soap. All of which goes double for soap with antibiotic added.
- finaliteration 6y agoI also have some eczema/dry skin problems and one thing that I've found helps is not showering every single day. I used to shower once (or sometimes twice) a day, and it made the skin on my elbows and knees extremely tight, dry, and itchy. I now shower every other day (I still use deodorant and change my clothes) and haven't had nearly as many issues. That being said, I am fortunate because I don't have a lot of body odor and I don't sweat very much, so I can reasonably get away with not having a daily shower.
- eczema_haver 6y agoOther factors that I've experienced (with eczema): - Water temperature has a huge effect; consider taking lukewarm or even cold showers, if you can get used to it - Using a wash rag is much harsher than just using soap in your hand. The coarse surface really used to tear up the outer layer of my skin. - When drying off with a towel, pat instead of rub
- walljm 6y agoi used to have trouble with dry skin, so i stopped using soap beyond shampoo for my hair and lower parts. i haven't had issues since.
- DoreenMichele 6y agoIf you have any kind of serious health issue, it's worth looking at your usual routine -- aka anything you do habitually, basically -- and wondering if that's a variable worth varying instead of considering something like soap all over to be sacrosanct. We have a shockingly poor understanding of the processes behind most diseases. We generally do a poor job of even thinking of the body in terms of processes and throughputs, much less factoring in elements like "I wonder how this is impacting my microbiome? And what that does to my overall health?" Tips for self experimentation: 1. Keep a journal. 2. Make one and only one change at a time and space them at least a week apart, longer if possible.
- Ductapemaster 6y agoQuestioning my daily routine led to me noticing significant improvements to my hair health. My lightbulb moment happened on a scuba trip (diving 4-5 times a day for week) where I wasn't showering like I usually do, but just rinsing off the salt at the end of the day. My hair was incredibly healthy by the end of the week — no excessive oils, discomfort, dandruff, itchy scalp — just healthy hair. I had suffered on and off with those before. I started using shampoo only once or twice a week (I do shower daily) and just using hot water the rest of the days. My hair is immensely happier now! I also switched to using a "fancy" shampoo with salt granules in it, since the ocean seems to make my hair nice, and that helped as well. Even though the shampoo is more expensive than the cheap stuff I used before, I use way less of it and it's cheaper overall. I've tested my theory in a couple ways, and it's all been positive. After a Pre-COVID haircut, I had them use whatever shampoo they use for a wash. My scalp was itchy, dry, and uncomfortable for at least 24 hours after that, and my hair was totally flat for a few days as well. I also tried not using shampoo for a long time (3 weeks) and just using hot water, but I got dandruff again and I could feel I was getting dry skin and oil residue building up on my scalp. I'm back to my normal routine now, and have never been happier.
- crb002 6y agoA wet loofah will exfoliate just fine without soap. You don't give your colon a soap enema every day, why do that to your skin microbiome?
- throw0101a 6y agoIf anyone wants a 'fuller' treatment on the topic I would recommend the book Beyond Soap by Dr. Sandy Skotnicki; bona fides: > Dr. SANDY SKOTNICKI is the founder of Toronto’s Bay Dermatology Centre and an Assistant Professor in the Department of Medicine, divisions of Dermatology and Occupational and Environmental Health at the University of Toronto. She is a consultant dermatologist at Toronto’s St. Michael’s Hospital. […] * https://drsandyskotnicki.com https://drsandyskotnicki.com Interview with her on TVO, the province of Ontario's public broadcast network: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGl19JJnaK0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGl19JJnaK0 It's not that soap is "bad", it's just that we're overemphasizing cleanliness to the point that a lot of the cleaning chemicals we (over-)use are damaging our skin. Also, one certainly wants some cleanliness, but many products are excessively harsh for what they accomplish, and so she recommends certain products that she's found helped her patients: * https://www.producteliminationdiet.com https://www.producteliminationdiet.com
- yingw787 6y agoFun fact, in Ancient Rome people used olive oil as soap, and scraped off the excess using a...metal thing. Sometimes they put perfumed olive oil into their bathtubs. This is for richer folk, regular people used crude soaps. https://hubpages.com/education/The-Many-Uses-of-Olive-Oil-in-Ancient-Rome https://hubpages.com/education/The-Many-Uses-of-Olive-Oil-in...
- shadowprofile77 6y agoStrigil. that's what it was called.
- james305 6y agoSorry for folks with eczema, but maybe it's about the soap you're using versus not using soap. I've had the misfortune of working with people who thought showering was optional and it's not pleasant. So unless you want to offend others and be referred to as the stinky co-worker please wash.
- ykevinator 6y agoNot not showering, showering without soap
- james305 6y ago"Hamblin started to notice that he smelled less pleasant when stressed." I guess I just worked with a bunch a stressed people..
- mumblemumble 6y agoYou've conflated "not using soap to clean oneself" with "not cleaning oneself". I have several friends who do shower, but don't use soap except for hands or when they're actually dirty. None of them get funky, except when we're camping and nobody's been able to take a shower for a while.
- james305 6y agoJust water or is there some soap proxy?
- mumblemumble 6y agoJust water. Just like what TFA is suggesting.
- upofadown 6y agoAs I got older the situation with my scalp kept getting worse and worse to the point I was using anti-fungus shampoo and still had fungus. So I just gave up. After an oily month or so everything was great. So I stopped using soap in the shower entirely. So far so good and it has been at least 5 years.
- MrManatee 6y agoI don't use as little soap as the article suggests, but I use less than many people do. I don't want to smell bad, and I know it's harder to judge your own smells. But there's one piece of trivia that gave me the confidence to try it. Humans have two types of sweat glands: eccrine and apocrine. Eccrine sweat glands are found all over the body. Apocrine glands are found in armpits (and a few other areas), and they only activate at puberty. The smell is related to bacterial activity in the "apocrine sweat". Armpits don't smell because they sweat more; they smell because it's a different kind of sweat. So I use soap for my armpits. If I don't, I'll notice the smell easily in a day or two. But for most of my skin, I can go pretty much indefinitely with just water. I don't notice any bad smells, and I have asked some close friends, and they don't smell anything either.
- oska 6y agoYou're right about the two different types of sweat glands. And just to finesse what you're saying here: > The smell is related to bacterial activity in the "apocrine sweat". Armpits don't smell because they sweat more; they smell because it's a different kind of sweat. Even the sweat from the apocrine glands doesn't smell when it's produced. But because it is much richer in nutrients than the sweat produced from the eccrine glands (which is 99% water and the last 1% mainly being salts), it is a fertile feeding ground for bacteria. And it's the waste excreted by the bacteria feeding on your appocrine sweat that smells bad, not the sweat itself.
- sys_64738 6y agoDoes this really pass the smell test?
- jhanschoo 6y agoOn the other hand, I used to get clogged pores when I went an extended period without body gel (after being allergic to a body gel I used). I've since resumed with a different brand. So this advice is very ymmv.