4 ms·

The original paper is here: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-63657-6 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-63657-6 I disagree with their approac

The original paper is here: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-63657-6 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-63657-6 I disagree with their approach and conclusion ("Deforestation will continue accelerating at the same rate forever! Technology will continue accelerating at the same rate forever! Population growth will continue at the same rate forever!"), which strikes me as being misguided in a classically Malthusian way. But the paper is worth taking a look at, as there is an interesting discussion of the Fermi paradox, where we lie on the Kardashev scale, and the possibility that societal collapse due to overconsumption of resources is the Great Filter[0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Filter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Filter

mensetmanusman 6y ago
Not sure a great filter is necessary. The universe is probably brimming with life, there is just no way to travel such distances due to quality of life issues in interstellar space. Also, energy required to actually communicate that you exist to the entire universe is star consuming...
DeonPenny 6y ago
Yeh for one population rates are slowing down and has for every country that has industrialize to below replacement rate. Its more likely we'd die from underpopulation
Recurecur 6y ago
Right, it is directly the "argument by precedent" fallacy. It has happened that way before, therefore it always will! (Waking up in the morning, for instance...) The same exact thing happened with "The Limits of Growth", written during the 60's (MIT group). Bad assumptions, scenario didn't happen. That's not to say there aren't problems, but the global war that's likely about to start will set population back a fair bit I think. That's a much more immediate and real concern than hypothetical future deforestation. On a happier note, the wood producers replant a whole bunch of trees after harvest. It's not like the forests are actually "vanishing" in first-world countries.
monkeydreams 6y ago
The problems with the Fermi Paradox are so foundational that using it as the basis of any assumption about the distribution of extra-terrestrial life, let alone extra-terrestrial intelligence, is futile. We just don't know what other life will look like, where it will live, on what timescale it operates, or, well, anything. And this is before we then take into account the changes that intelligence will wrought. An advanced, intelligent race could appear as nearly, literally anything it chooses. We are basing these ideas of Great Filters, Dark Forests, etc on the idea that the universe is apparently empty. It could be obviously teeming with life that we are unable to see because it operates outside of our lifespans and contexts. They might have noticed that Earth has recently developed a petroleum and concrete surface scum and are frantically (for their frame of reference) inquiring as to whether Earth is OK or if it has a disease.

mensetmanusman 6y ago

Not sure a great filter is necessary. The universe is probably brimming with life, there is just no way to travel such distances due to quality of life issues in interstellar space. Also, energy required to actually communicate that you exist to the entire universe is star consuming...

DeonPenny 6y ago

Yeh for one population rates are slowing down and has for every country that has industrialize to below replacement rate. Its more likely we'd die from underpopulation

Recurecur 6y ago

Right, it is directly the "argument by precedent" fallacy. It has happened that way before, therefore it always will! (Waking up in the morning, for instance...) The same exact thing happened with "The Limits of Growth", written during the 60's (MIT group). Bad assumptions, scenario didn't happen. That's not to say there aren't problems, but the global war that's likely about to start will set population back a fair bit I think. That's a much more immediate and real concern than hypothetical future deforestation. On a happier note, the wood producers replant a whole bunch of trees after harvest. It's not like the forests are actually "vanishing" in first-world countries.

monkeydreams 6y ago

The problems with the Fermi Paradox are so foundational that using it as the basis of any assumption about the distribution of extra-terrestrial life, let alone extra-terrestrial intelligence, is futile. We just don't know what other life will look like, where it will live, on what timescale it operates, or, well, anything. And this is before we then take into account the changes that intelligence will wrought. An advanced, intelligent race could appear as nearly, literally anything it chooses. We are basing these ideas of Great Filters, Dark Forests, etc on the idea that the universe is apparently empty. It could be obviously teeming with life that we are unable to see because it operates outside of our lifespans and contexts. They might have noticed that Earth has recently developed a petroleum and concrete surface scum and are frantically (for their frame of reference) inquiring as to whether Earth is OK or if it has a disease.