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> But from talking with them, it seems like their focus is on retirement - hopefully in their 50's. That's their grand plan, because that's when they'll start "

> But from talking with them, it seems like their focus is on retirement - hopefully in their 50's. That's their grand plan, because that's when they'll start "living". It goes much deeper than that. The notion that work could not possibly be "living" is much more popular in Europe too. With employment so over-regulated and entrepreneurship discouraged it's easy to see why people treat "work" in a very transactional way. For most people there just isn't a lot of obvious upside waiting for them if they work extra hard. Salaries are extremely compressed compared to the US. The only way to make real money[0] in Europe is by running a business but that's discouraged too. Even education - there's no Ivy League of Europe, there's no Stanford. There are some schools that may be considered good, but elite - not really. [0] well I guess anywhere, but there are many diverse career paths in the US that will reliably get you to a few hundred k. In Europe not so much.

dageshi 6y ago
Oxford and Cambridge perhaps?
- auganov 6y ago
  Well, if you consider that Europe then yes. For anybody living outside of the UK, going there isn't all that different from going to the US. The tuition is only somewhat cheaper too I think. As opposed to most "best" schools in mainland Europe being essentially free for locals. So I'd assume any kid in Europe planning to go to Oxford is probably planning to apply to American schools too. And not sure how reliably you could get accepted too. Like say for myself, when I was younger I really wanted to go to one of the top US schools (ended up not going to any). It was pretty obvious to me I'd never get accepted if I went to a local high-school so went to a prep-school in the US. The UK, I assume, has their equivalent of that too.
  - krn 6y ago
    > For anybody living outside of the UK, going there isn't all that different from going to the US. The tuition is only somewhat cheaper too I think. As opposed to most "best" schools in mainland Europe being essentially free for locals. The EU citizens from outside the UK are able to study in Scotland without paying any tuition fees. The University of Edinburgh is as highly ranked internationally, as Yale, Columbia, and Cornell[1]. The University of St Andrews is as highly ranked locally, as Cambridge and Oxford[2]. > So I'd assume any kid in Europe planning to go to Oxford is probably planning to apply to American schools too. That's completely wrong. Almost nobody is considering the US when applying to the universities in England, because England offers Tution Fee Loan to all EU students, that only needs to be repaid when one's income is over the repayment threshold[3]. However, this might end in 2021, because of Brexit. [1] https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2021 https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-un... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/education/ng-interactive/2019/jun/07/university-league-tables-2020 https://www.theguardian.com/education/ng-interactive/2019/ju... [3] https://www.ucas.com/finance/student-finance-england/tuition-fee-loans-full-time-students https://www.ucas.com/finance/student-finance-england/tuition...
    - auganov 6y ago
      > because England offers Tution Fee Loan to all EU students, that only needs to be repaid when one's income is over the repayment threshold I stand corrected on this then. > The University of Edinburgh is as highly ranked internationally, as Yale, Columbia, and Cornell The rankings I have to disagree with, I'd like to see something that compared expected income or net worth for graduates. Let's say you're given an opportunity to go to "University of Edinburgh" or Yale with all costs paid for. I think you'll have a hard time finding people who would pick the former.
      - krn 6y ago
        > The rankings I have to disagree with, I'd like to see something that compared expected income or net worth for graduates. Universities are primarily ranked by the quality of their research output, not by the expected net worth of their graduates. > Let's say you're given an opportunity to go to "University of Edinburgh" or Yale with all costs paid for. I think you'll have a hard time finding people who would pick the former. At least in Europe, a graduate of University of Edinburgh would be worth as much as a graduate of Yale in most industries, including finance, law and tech. They would have equal chances of getting a banking job in London, or working for a FAANG company in Zurich. The Ivy League only really matters, if one wants to live in the US. And most Europeans don't. Because Europe is not about becoming super rich, but about never becoming poor. For instance, in my EU country I can take as many years off as I want, and still remain fully covered by the national health insurance by paying just 40€ / month. If a broke my leg tomorrow, it wouldn't cost me anything at all. Therefore, I couldn't care less about being "a high net-worth individual" as long as I don't need to stress about the basic things in life, and have enough freedom to work only with – or for – the companies I really like.
        auganov 6y ago
        > The Ivy League only really matters, if one wants to live in the US Of course not. You'll still have a better network even if you don't stay in America. Say if you need VC funding for your startup in Europe, you'll be dealing with Americans sooner than later. Or if you're dealing with China or India, they share the same preference too. It'll help. And although there aren't that many truly private European VCs I sincerely doubt they wouldn't notice. I doubt most people outside of the UK know the University of Edinburgh. Everybody knows the top US schools. Never heard of anybody bragging about a University of Edinburgh credential. I'm not even remotely a fan of higher education or the academia at all. But nonetheless like most people I would notice if somebody had a highly-coveted credential. > At least in Europe, a graduate of University of Edinburgh would be worth as much as a graduate of Yale in most industries, including finance, law and tech. They would have equal chances of getting a banking job in London, or working for a FAANG company in Zurich. That point is moot, obviously you couldn't do any major hiring if you expected American credentials in Europe. Yet, the reverse likely isn't true. A Yale credential would open more doors in America and wouldn't close any in Europe. Hence it's superior.
iateanapple 6y ago
> For most people there just isn't a lot of obvious upside waiting for them if they work extra hard. Salaries are extremely compressed compared to the US Exactly! Even in a fairly well paid European country like Germany the salaries are a joke for high performers. It is difficult as a dev to earn, even after a decade of experience and working incredibly hard, more than €100k/year. But a good junior with 1-2 years of experience can earn €50k/year. So you can’t even make double after taxes of what a junior makes. Almost no matter how hard you work. And yet you could take it easy and have a great work life balance and after a decade be earning €80k/year.
laurencerowe 6y ago
> Even education - there's no Ivy League of Europe, there's no Stanford. There are some schools that may be considered good, but elite - not really. This is in part because research is organized differently in other countries. Lots of world-class research happens in Germany, but in research institutes rather than universities.
codethief 6y ago
> Salaries are extremely compressed compared to the US. That's because in Europe social welfare contributions are usually deducted from your salary automatically, thereby making it lower. Which, however, doesn't necessarily mean you're getting less. > Even education - there's no Ivy League of Europe, there's no Stanford. There are some schools that may be considered good, but elite - not really. Elite on what scale? I've had the pleasure to see what [math/physics] research at various universities in the US and in Europe looks like and I don't think there is any difference in quality. How would there be one? I think I remember reading somewhere that about 50% of STEM professors in the US are from outside the US. Besides, the Ivy League-related elitism in the US to a large degree comes from the marketing that those schools (need to) do. They are private institutions after all – in contrast to most European universities –, so they need to maintain that myth.
- auganov 6y ago
  > doesn't necessarily mean you're getting less Of course you're getting less. If you're not using any of the programs you're getting a terrible deal. If you want private healthcare you're going to have to pay for it yourself (and it will only cover basics). I never used a government program once in my life. Actually I'm not even covered by the socialized healthcare. Not that I would like to be, but if I get seriously sick as in cancer there isn't a viable private option. But for normal doctors and procedures I can pay cash just fine. But either way you cannot explain the differential with just taxes. There are many places in Europe where you might end up paying less as a percentage than America. It's regulation and overall culture too. Not to mention all sizable EU countries have a lower GDP per capita. Economically they're just inferior. > Elite on what scale? No, the point isn't that these schools produce people of vastly superior intelligence or skill. The point is a 15 year old in high school does not feel a lot of pressure to work super hard to get into an "elite" institution, because it's simply not on the radar for most people. . Just like most people don't have a prospect of a promotion offering vastly superior pay, they don't have a prospect of a school offering vastly superior opportunities.
krn 6y ago
> Even education - there's no Ivy League of Europe, there's no Stanford. There are some schools that may be considered good, but elite - not really. In the world's top 20, there are 10 North American universities and 7 European universities at the moment[1]. That's not such a huge difference, given the fact, that undergraduate degrees in most European countries are only taught in the local language. As a result, only universities in the UK and Switzerland are able to reach the "elite" status – and these countries combined are much smaller than the US. [1] https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2021 https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-un...
- auganov 6y ago
  > that undergraduate degrees in most European countries are only taught in the local language While "most" might be true quantitatively, from what I've seen most of local "best" schools do offer studies in English. Most top schools in Germany seem to offer this. Even an American could get in on these super cheap deals. But there aren't that many takers (from the US). Given the enormous cost differential you'd think people would be storming these schools. I have some Indian friends that attend such a program at a local university. From talking to them most wanted to go to US (some Canada) but couldn't get in or afford it and this was their second choice. Also none are planning to stay. The rankings, again, I have to dispute. The best way to rank schools would be to actually ask people which schools they'd go to if cost/admissions wasn't a factor.
  - krn 6y ago
    > While "most" might be true quantitatively, from what I've seen most of local "best" schools do offer studies in English. Most top schools in Germany seem to offer this. Even in Germany, probably 90% of the undergraduate courses are taught in German only. The percentage of postgraduate courses available in English is much higher, though. Still, most professors are required to be able to teach in the local language. Therefore, the number of international faculty members outside the UK and Switzerland is very limited.
    - 6y ago

dageshi 6y ago

Oxford and Cambridge perhaps?

auganov 6y ago
Well, if you consider that Europe then yes. For anybody living outside of the UK, going there isn't all that different from going to the US. The tuition is only somewhat cheaper too I think. As opposed to most "best" schools in mainland Europe being essentially free for locals. So I'd assume any kid in Europe planning to go to Oxford is probably planning to apply to American schools too. And not sure how reliably you could get accepted too. Like say for myself, when I was younger I really wanted to go to one of the top US schools (ended up not going to any). It was pretty obvious to me I'd never get accepted if I went to a local high-school so went to a prep-school in the US. The UK, I assume, has their equivalent of that too.
- krn 6y ago
  > For anybody living outside of the UK, going there isn't all that different from going to the US. The tuition is only somewhat cheaper too I think. As opposed to most "best" schools in mainland Europe being essentially free for locals. The EU citizens from outside the UK are able to study in Scotland without paying any tuition fees. The University of Edinburgh is as highly ranked internationally, as Yale, Columbia, and Cornell[1]. The University of St Andrews is as highly ranked locally, as Cambridge and Oxford[2]. > So I'd assume any kid in Europe planning to go to Oxford is probably planning to apply to American schools too. That's completely wrong. Almost nobody is considering the US when applying to the universities in England, because England offers Tution Fee Loan to all EU students, that only needs to be repaid when one's income is over the repayment threshold[3]. However, this might end in 2021, because of Brexit. [1] https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2021 https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-un... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/education/ng-interactive/2019/jun/07/university-league-tables-2020 https://www.theguardian.com/education/ng-interactive/2019/ju... [3] https://www.ucas.com/finance/student-finance-england/tuition-fee-loans-full-time-students https://www.ucas.com/finance/student-finance-england/tuition...
  - auganov 6y ago
    > because England offers Tution Fee Loan to all EU students, that only needs to be repaid when one's income is over the repayment threshold I stand corrected on this then. > The University of Edinburgh is as highly ranked internationally, as Yale, Columbia, and Cornell The rankings I have to disagree with, I'd like to see something that compared expected income or net worth for graduates. Let's say you're given an opportunity to go to "University of Edinburgh" or Yale with all costs paid for. I think you'll have a hard time finding people who would pick the former.
    - krn 6y ago
      > The rankings I have to disagree with, I'd like to see something that compared expected income or net worth for graduates. Universities are primarily ranked by the quality of their research output, not by the expected net worth of their graduates. > Let's say you're given an opportunity to go to "University of Edinburgh" or Yale with all costs paid for. I think you'll have a hard time finding people who would pick the former. At least in Europe, a graduate of University of Edinburgh would be worth as much as a graduate of Yale in most industries, including finance, law and tech. They would have equal chances of getting a banking job in London, or working for a FAANG company in Zurich. The Ivy League only really matters, if one wants to live in the US. And most Europeans don't. Because Europe is not about becoming super rich, but about never becoming poor. For instance, in my EU country I can take as many years off as I want, and still remain fully covered by the national health insurance by paying just 40€ / month. If a broke my leg tomorrow, it wouldn't cost me anything at all. Therefore, I couldn't care less about being "a high net-worth individual" as long as I don't need to stress about the basic things in life, and have enough freedom to work only with – or for – the companies I really like.
      - auganov 6y ago
        > The Ivy League only really matters, if one wants to live in the US Of course not. You'll still have a better network even if you don't stay in America. Say if you need VC funding for your startup in Europe, you'll be dealing with Americans sooner than later. Or if you're dealing with China or India, they share the same preference too. It'll help. And although there aren't that many truly private European VCs I sincerely doubt they wouldn't notice. I doubt most people outside of the UK know the University of Edinburgh. Everybody knows the top US schools. Never heard of anybody bragging about a University of Edinburgh credential. I'm not even remotely a fan of higher education or the academia at all. But nonetheless like most people I would notice if somebody had a highly-coveted credential. > At least in Europe, a graduate of University of Edinburgh would be worth as much as a graduate of Yale in most industries, including finance, law and tech. They would have equal chances of getting a banking job in London, or working for a FAANG company in Zurich. That point is moot, obviously you couldn't do any major hiring if you expected American credentials in Europe. Yet, the reverse likely isn't true. A Yale credential would open more doors in America and wouldn't close any in Europe. Hence it's superior.

iateanapple 6y ago

> For most people there just isn't a lot of obvious upside waiting for them if they work extra hard. Salaries are extremely compressed compared to the US Exactly! Even in a fairly well paid European country like Germany the salaries are a joke for high performers. It is difficult as a dev to earn, even after a decade of experience and working incredibly hard, more than €100k/year. But a good junior with 1-2 years of experience can earn €50k/year. So you can’t even make double after taxes of what a junior makes. Almost no matter how hard you work. And yet you could take it easy and have a great work life balance and after a decade be earning €80k/year.

laurencerowe 6y ago

> Even education - there's no Ivy League of Europe, there's no Stanford. There are some schools that may be considered good, but elite - not really. This is in part because research is organized differently in other countries. Lots of world-class research happens in Germany, but in research institutes rather than universities.

codethief 6y ago

> Salaries are extremely compressed compared to the US. That's because in Europe social welfare contributions are usually deducted from your salary automatically, thereby making it lower. Which, however, doesn't necessarily mean you're getting less. > Even education - there's no Ivy League of Europe, there's no Stanford. There are some schools that may be considered good, but elite - not really. Elite on what scale? I've had the pleasure to see what [math/physics] research at various universities in the US and in Europe looks like and I don't think there is any difference in quality. How would there be one? I think I remember reading somewhere that about 50% of STEM professors in the US are from outside the US. Besides, the Ivy League-related elitism in the US to a large degree comes from the marketing that those schools (need to) do. They are private institutions after all – in contrast to most European universities –, so they need to maintain that myth.

auganov 6y ago
> doesn't necessarily mean you're getting less Of course you're getting less. If you're not using any of the programs you're getting a terrible deal. If you want private healthcare you're going to have to pay for it yourself (and it will only cover basics). I never used a government program once in my life. Actually I'm not even covered by the socialized healthcare. Not that I would like to be, but if I get seriously sick as in cancer there isn't a viable private option. But for normal doctors and procedures I can pay cash just fine. But either way you cannot explain the differential with just taxes. There are many places in Europe where you might end up paying less as a percentage than America. It's regulation and overall culture too. Not to mention all sizable EU countries have a lower GDP per capita. Economically they're just inferior. > Elite on what scale? No, the point isn't that these schools produce people of vastly superior intelligence or skill. The point is a 15 year old in high school does not feel a lot of pressure to work super hard to get into an "elite" institution, because it's simply not on the radar for most people. . Just like most people don't have a prospect of a promotion offering vastly superior pay, they don't have a prospect of a school offering vastly superior opportunities.

krn 6y ago

> Even education - there's no Ivy League of Europe, there's no Stanford. There are some schools that may be considered good, but elite - not really. In the world's top 20, there are 10 North American universities and 7 European universities at the moment[1]. That's not such a huge difference, given the fact, that undergraduate degrees in most European countries are only taught in the local language. As a result, only universities in the UK and Switzerland are able to reach the "elite" status – and these countries combined are much smaller than the US. [1] https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2021 https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-un...

auganov 6y ago
> that undergraduate degrees in most European countries are only taught in the local language While "most" might be true quantitatively, from what I've seen most of local "best" schools do offer studies in English. Most top schools in Germany seem to offer this. Even an American could get in on these super cheap deals. But there aren't that many takers (from the US). Given the enormous cost differential you'd think people would be storming these schools. I have some Indian friends that attend such a program at a local university. From talking to them most wanted to go to US (some Canada) but couldn't get in or afford it and this was their second choice. Also none are planning to stay. The rankings, again, I have to dispute. The best way to rank schools would be to actually ask people which schools they'd go to if cost/admissions wasn't a factor.
- krn 6y ago
  > While "most" might be true quantitatively, from what I've seen most of local "best" schools do offer studies in English. Most top schools in Germany seem to offer this. Even in Germany, probably 90% of the undergraduate courses are taught in German only. The percentage of postgraduate courses available in English is much higher, though. Still, most professors are required to be able to teach in the local language. Therefore, the number of international faculty members outside the UK and Switzerland is very limited.
  - 6y ago