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It is not necessarily the case that Floyd died from a knee on his neck. His official autopsy (not the "independent" one paid for by his family) shows that he ha

by it 6y ago

It is not necessarily the case that Floyd died from a knee on his neck. His official autopsy (not the "independent" one paid for by his family) shows that he had a potentially lethal level of fentanyl in his system (11 ng/mL) in addition to 19 ng/mL of methamphetamine (https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:bPUNU7uB-1oJ:https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepinus/residents/public-safety/documents/Autopsy_2020-3700_Floyd.pdf+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:bPUNU7...). That combination of drugs is one variant of what's known as a "speedball". It can cause death by respiratory failure. https://www.addictioncenter.com/drugs/heroin/speedball/ https://www.addictioncenter.com/drugs/heroin/speedball/. The autopsy also says "No life-threatening injuries identified", in particular "No injuries of anterior muscles of neck or laryngealstructures", so it is unlikely that the death was caused by Derek Chauvin putting his knee on Floyd's neck. There is also the problem of motivation. What possible reason could Derek Chauvin have to murder George Floyd? Surely he understood that doing such a thing could cost him his job, risk imprisonment, and make it very hard for him to find employment. Much more likely is that he believed the hold he used was nonlethal, and, given what we know from the Hennepin County autopsy, that it actually was nonlethal.

a_t48 6y ago
Even if this were the case - is it appropriate for the officer to not administer medical care for someone dying underneath his knee?
- it 6y ago
  Fair question. I think Chauvin knew he wasn't restraining airflow with his knee, and probably assumed Floyd was lying to get out of it.
AlexandrB 6y ago
> Surely he understood that doing such a thing could cost him his job, risk imprisonment, and make it very hard for him to find employment. Citation needed. Most similar cases show that this is not true. Indeed, that's the whole point of Black Lives Matter. When this happens the police officer responsible is rarely held accountable. Edit: This is especially the case for Derek Chauvin, because he had experienced numerous complaints against him in the past and the consequences amounted to nothing at all. https://nypost.com/2020/05/28/cop-in-george-floyds-death-was-the-subject-of-10-complaints/ https://nypost.com/2020/05/28/cop-in-george-floyds-death-was...
teachrdan 6y ago
I think you are mistaken in several of your assumptions. The official autopsy literally labels George Floyd's death a homicide: > But the report released later Monday by the Hennepin County Medical Examiner's office said Floyd died of "cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint and neck compression." The manner of death was ruled homicide, but the office noted that "is not a legal determination of culpability or intent." [emphasis mine] And it's another mistake to assume that the county medical office is "independent," as I think you are suggesting. They work for the same municipal government that employed the police officer who killed George Floyd, the same entity that would be subject to a lawsuit for his wrongful death. They have a clear financial and reputational incentive to find that Derek Chauvin did not intentionally kill George Floyd. The issue of motivation is not a "problem" in any sense. To answer your question, "What possible reason could Derek Chauvin have to murder George Floyd?", you might ask what reason an NYPD officer had to choke Erik Garner to death with a baton, to take just one example of the police killing an unarmed black man. Having said that, Derek Chauvin and George Floyd both worked security at the same night club during the same time period, with overlapping shifts, so Chauvin may have had specific motivation to attack him. But recent history has many examples of police assaulting and even killing Black Americans for no discernable reason. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/george-floyd-death-autopsies-homicide-axphyxiation-details/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/george-floyd-death-autopsies-ho... https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/equality/502006-george-floyd-and-derek-chauvin-bumped-heads-while-working https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/equality/502006...
- rcoveson 6y ago
  > The official autopsy literally labels George Floyd's death a homicide Are we reading the same report? The link in GP doesn't contain the word "homicide". In fact I can't find anything in it stating a cause of death. It looks to be nothing but observations. I'm left confused by the CBS News link. I doubt they infer that "The manner of death was ruled a homicide" (which was not a quote) from the autopsy case title, quote, "Cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression". It seems more likely that there is another source; that the homicide ruling was made by a different entity (besides the medical examiner's office), or at least by a different document (not the autopsy report). EDIT: The document stating that the manner of death was homicide was a press release from the medical examiner's office[1]. 1: https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MNHENNE/2020/06/01/file_attachments/1464238/2020-3700%20Floyd,%20George%20Perry%20Update%206.1.2020.pdf https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MNHENNE/2020/06/...
tfehring 6y ago
Floyd went from walking around, talking, and apparently able to breathe with no problems, to dead, during the first ~5 minutes that Chauvin's knee was on his neck. Is your claim that Chauvin's actions had nothing at all to do with his death - that he simply died of an overdose by coincidence at that time, and that it would have been equally likely that he dropped dead during the five-minute period before Chauvin showed up? That would make for a hell of a coincidence. Also, 19 ng/mL of methamphetamine isn't a therapeutically active concentration - it's not even enough to trigger a positive drug test [0]. And 11 ng/mL of fentanyl is on the low end of the range recommended for anaesthesia [1] - that same source states that "[b]lood concentrations of approximately 7 ng/ml or greater have been associated with fatalities where poly-substance use was involved," but no other substances were present at high enough concentrations to be therapeutically active. It's possible that Chauvin's actions wouldn't have killed him if he hadn't had fentanyl in his system, but that's not a defense [2]. [0] https://www.mayocliniclabs.com/test-catalog/Clinical+and+Interpretive/8257 https://www.mayocliniclabs.com/test-catalog/Clinical+and+Int... [1] https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publications/drug-profiles/fentanyl#pharmacology https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publications/drug-profiles/fent... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggshell_skull https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggshell_skull
- it 6y ago
  > that he simply died of an overdose by coincidence at that time, and that it would have been equally likely that he dropped dead during the five-minute period before Chauvin showed up I'm saying that's a real possibility that is suggested by the county autopsy. Thank you for the additional context on the drug levels. If you are right about this, then I am not sure how to explain what happened. The neck restraint is described as "Compressing one or both sides of person’s neck with an arm or leg, without applying direct pressure to the trachea or airway", consistent with the county's autopsy finding of "no injuries of anterior muscles of neck or laryngealstructures". See page 9 of http://www.mncourts.gov/mncourtsgov/media/High-Profile-Cases/27-CR-20-12951-TKL/Exhibit67807072020.pdf http://www.mncourts.gov/mncourtsgov/media/High-Profile-Cases.... Here are some more details about what happened. Have a look starting at page 15. http://www.mncourts.gov/mncourtsgov/media/High-Profile-Cases/27-CR-20-12951-TKL/Memorandum07072020.pdf http://www.mncourts.gov/mncourtsgov/media/High-Profile-Cases...
specialist 6y ago
"It is not necessarily the case ..." What measure of proof do you require? "What possible reason could Derek Chauvin have to murder George Floyd?" They have history. "he believed the hold he used was nonlethal" Then why was he smiling? For 8 minutes and 48 seconds? And continued to kneel, against procedure, and advice from colleagues to stop? Really, your incredulity is too much.

by it 6y ago

a_t48 6y ago

Even if this were the case - is it appropriate for the officer to not administer medical care for someone dying underneath his knee?

it 6y ago
Fair question. I think Chauvin knew he wasn't restraining airflow with his knee, and probably assumed Floyd was lying to get out of it.

AlexandrB 6y ago

> Surely he understood that doing such a thing could cost him his job, risk imprisonment, and make it very hard for him to find employment. Citation needed. Most similar cases show that this is not true. Indeed, that's the whole point of Black Lives Matter. When this happens the police officer responsible is rarely held accountable. Edit: This is especially the case for Derek Chauvin, because he had experienced numerous complaints against him in the past and the consequences amounted to nothing at all. https://nypost.com/2020/05/28/cop-in-george-floyds-death-was-the-subject-of-10-complaints/ https://nypost.com/2020/05/28/cop-in-george-floyds-death-was...

teachrdan 6y ago

I think you are mistaken in several of your assumptions. The official autopsy literally labels George Floyd's death a homicide: > But the report released later Monday by the Hennepin County Medical Examiner's office said Floyd died of "cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint and neck compression." The manner of death was ruled homicide, but the office noted that "is not a legal determination of culpability or intent." [emphasis mine] And it's another mistake to assume that the county medical office is "independent," as I think you are suggesting. They work for the same municipal government that employed the police officer who killed George Floyd, the same entity that would be subject to a lawsuit for his wrongful death. They have a clear financial and reputational incentive to find that Derek Chauvin did not intentionally kill George Floyd. The issue of motivation is not a "problem" in any sense. To answer your question, "What possible reason could Derek Chauvin have to murder George Floyd?", you might ask what reason an NYPD officer had to choke Erik Garner to death with a baton, to take just one example of the police killing an unarmed black man. Having said that, Derek Chauvin and George Floyd both worked security at the same night club during the same time period, with overlapping shifts, so Chauvin may have had specific motivation to attack him. But recent history has many examples of police assaulting and even killing Black Americans for no discernable reason. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/george-floyd-death-autopsies-homicide-axphyxiation-details/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/george-floyd-death-autopsies-ho... https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/equality/502006-george-floyd-and-derek-chauvin-bumped-heads-while-working https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/equality/502006...

rcoveson 6y ago
> The official autopsy literally labels George Floyd's death a homicide Are we reading the same report? The link in GP doesn't contain the word "homicide". In fact I can't find anything in it stating a cause of death. It looks to be nothing but observations. I'm left confused by the CBS News link. I doubt they infer that "The manner of death was ruled a homicide" (which was not a quote) from the autopsy case title, quote, "Cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression". It seems more likely that there is another source; that the homicide ruling was made by a different entity (besides the medical examiner's office), or at least by a different document (not the autopsy report). EDIT: The document stating that the manner of death was homicide was a press release from the medical examiner's office[1]. 1: https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MNHENNE/2020/06/01/file_attachments/1464238/2020-3700%20Floyd,%20George%20Perry%20Update%206.1.2020.pdf https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MNHENNE/2020/06/...

tfehring 6y ago

Floyd went from walking around, talking, and apparently able to breathe with no problems, to dead, during the first ~5 minutes that Chauvin's knee was on his neck. Is your claim that Chauvin's actions had nothing at all to do with his death - that he simply died of an overdose by coincidence at that time, and that it would have been equally likely that he dropped dead during the five-minute period before Chauvin showed up? That would make for a hell of a coincidence. Also, 19 ng/mL of methamphetamine isn't a therapeutically active concentration - it's not even enough to trigger a positive drug test [0]. And 11 ng/mL of fentanyl is on the low end of the range recommended for anaesthesia [1] - that same source states that "[b]lood concentrations of approximately 7 ng/ml or greater have been associated with fatalities where poly-substance use was involved," but no other substances were present at high enough concentrations to be therapeutically active. It's possible that Chauvin's actions wouldn't have killed him if he hadn't had fentanyl in his system, but that's not a defense [2]. [0] https://www.mayocliniclabs.com/test-catalog/Clinical+and+Interpretive/8257 https://www.mayocliniclabs.com/test-catalog/Clinical+and+Int... [1] https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publications/drug-profiles/fentanyl#pharmacology https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publications/drug-profiles/fent... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggshell_skull https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggshell_skull

it 6y ago
> that he simply died of an overdose by coincidence at that time, and that it would have been equally likely that he dropped dead during the five-minute period before Chauvin showed up I'm saying that's a real possibility that is suggested by the county autopsy. Thank you for the additional context on the drug levels. If you are right about this, then I am not sure how to explain what happened. The neck restraint is described as "Compressing one or both sides of person’s neck with an arm or leg, without applying direct pressure to the trachea or airway", consistent with the county's autopsy finding of "no injuries of anterior muscles of neck or laryngealstructures". See page 9 of http://www.mncourts.gov/mncourtsgov/media/High-Profile-Cases/27-CR-20-12951-TKL/Exhibit67807072020.pdf http://www.mncourts.gov/mncourtsgov/media/High-Profile-Cases.... Here are some more details about what happened. Have a look starting at page 15. http://www.mncourts.gov/mncourtsgov/media/High-Profile-Cases/27-CR-20-12951-TKL/Memorandum07072020.pdf http://www.mncourts.gov/mncourtsgov/media/High-Profile-Cases...

specialist 6y ago

"It is not necessarily the case ..." What measure of proof do you require? "What possible reason could Derek Chauvin have to murder George Floyd?" They have history. "he believed the hold he used was nonlethal" Then why was he smiling? For 8 minutes and 48 seconds? And continued to kneel, against procedure, and advice from colleagues to stop? Really, your incredulity is too much.