4 ms·

Also – doesn’t the US passport mean you have to pay (or at least declare) taxes on your non-US income back to the IRS? That doesn’t seem desirable. An EU passp

by Cenk 6y ago

Also – doesn’t the US passport mean you have to pay (or at least declare) taxes on your non-US income back to the IRS? That doesn’t seem desirable. An EU passport would vastly outrank the US passport in terms of economic opportunity because it gives you the right to live and work anywhere in the EU without a visa or much paperwork.

ericmay 6y ago
Only after the first $100,000. I don't see a big problem with this either. > An EU passport would vastly outrank the US passport in terms of economic opportunity Extremely debatable, even more so with using the term "vastly".
- greatpatton 6y ago
  Come to live in Switzerland and then you will understand why the US embassy here has the highest US citizenship renunciation in the world...
  - fermienrico 6y ago
    Switzerland isn't part of the EU.
  - greatpatton 6y ago
    yes but Switzerland has freedom of movement with EU, meaning that EU passport holder can freely settle in CH or Swiss passport holder in EU...
  - learc83 6y ago
    I'm not sure what that metric is supposed to prove? That Switzerland has a higher number of rich US expats who want to avoid paying US taxes than other countries do? It's very difficult to get Swiss citizenship in the first place, so it makes sense that it's mostly well off US citizens who are able to get Swiss citizenship, and are thus able to renounce their US citizenship.
  - greatpatton 6y ago
    @learc83 it just shows that when you have a dual citizenship (US- CH or European one) the IRS issue is a real problem in a country where the median salary is just under 85k$ per year (no need to be a rich guy). The point is a US passport is great to live in the US, that's it. (personally know 3 ex US citizen that where tired to pay a US accountant when they already had to go through Swiss tax system).
    - learc83 6y ago
      >The point is a US passport is great to live in the US, that's it. Yes assuming you never want to work or live in the US, compared to a Swiss passport and a handful of other passports that's true. Compared to 90% of countries on the planet, it's not true. >the IRS issue is a real problem in a country where the median salary is just under 85k$ per year (no need to be a rich guy). How many dual US and Swiss citizens are making under under or anywhere near the median income? It's very hard to migrate to Switzerland, so my guess is not many.
      - greatpatton 6y ago
        A median is a median... and if you are a married couple very easily. But it is also the case if you have a EU-US dual citizenship. So in fact that's a lot of person. Also it's not that complicated to migrate to Switzerland is you are an American with a EU passport (get an Italian passport if one of your grand-parents was Italian and bingo), and that's the case of a lot of people. In Switzerland every year between 500-700 people renounce their US citizenship... so at least a few.
        learc83 6y ago
        >A median is a median >in a country where the median salary is just under 85k$ per year If $85k is the median salary for the country, that says nothing about the median salary of US expats in the country. > But it is also the case if you have a EU-US dual citizenship How is that relevant when we were taking about people with US and Swiss citizenship? >Also it's not that complicated to migrate to Switzerland is you are an American with a EU passport (get an Italian passport if one of your grand-parents was Italian and bingo), It's not that hard, you just need to have an Italian Grandparent, go through the process (which can take years depending on where you live), move to Switzerland, find a job, then live there for 10 years.
- oarsinsync 6y ago
  My American colleagues living in London tend to disagree with you. It’s easy to accept the additional taxation when it’s not happening to you. When Uncle Sam is picking your pocket and giving little back in return, it’s a different story.
  - ericmay 6y ago
    So surely you sympathize with those living in the U.S. who feel the same way?
    - oarsinsync 6y ago
      I do sympathise with people who are unhappy about being taxed by a government of a country they do not live in. I do not sympathise with people who are unhappy about being taxed by the government of the country they do live in. EDIT: That's not to say I love the rate at which I get taxed at, but everyone around you is subject to the same rules, and so you're preaching (complaining) to the choir. Immigrants suffering double taxation, both by the nation they live in, and the nation they're a citizen of, strikes me as massively unfair by comparison.
      - ericmay 6y ago
        I think many people would argue they are paying taxes and not getting much in return. There are probably very few people immigrants making over $100,000 as well. It probably keeps people from making a bunch of money off of US-based businesses and then skating off to Vietnam or something.
- sneeze-slayer 6y ago
  But this introduces a huge pain and expense of preparing US taxes every year even if you live abroad and don't step foot on US soil. Additionally, tons of foreign banks won't let you set up accounts even if you live in their country due to FATCA reporting requirements for US citizens. Finally, on a more conceptual level, is it fair that US citizens have to pay taxes where they get nothing in return? Especially when no other developed country has citizenship-based taxation?
  - RhysU 6y ago
    If a US citizen gets nothing in return for their taxes why would anyone want the citizenship?
strictnein 6y ago
> "An EU passport would vastly outrank the US passport in terms of economic opportunity" EU GDP: $18.29 Trillion US GDP: $20.54 Trillion And that's before factoring in per capita differences, which tip the scales even farther to the US. Moving around the EU is now as easy as moving around the US, so congrats I guess?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

by Cenk 6y ago

ericmay 6y ago

Only after the first $100,000. I don't see a big problem with this either. > An EU passport would vastly outrank the US passport in terms of economic opportunity Extremely debatable, even more so with using the term "vastly".

greatpatton 6y ago
Come to live in Switzerland and then you will understand why the US embassy here has the highest US citizenship renunciation in the world...
- fermienrico 6y ago
  Switzerland isn't part of the EU.
- greatpatton 6y ago
  yes but Switzerland has freedom of movement with EU, meaning that EU passport holder can freely settle in CH or Swiss passport holder in EU...
- learc83 6y ago
  I'm not sure what that metric is supposed to prove? That Switzerland has a higher number of rich US expats who want to avoid paying US taxes than other countries do? It's very difficult to get Swiss citizenship in the first place, so it makes sense that it's mostly well off US citizens who are able to get Swiss citizenship, and are thus able to renounce their US citizenship.
- greatpatton 6y ago
  @learc83 it just shows that when you have a dual citizenship (US- CH or European one) the IRS issue is a real problem in a country where the median salary is just under 85k$ per year (no need to be a rich guy). The point is a US passport is great to live in the US, that's it. (personally know 3 ex US citizen that where tired to pay a US accountant when they already had to go through Swiss tax system).
  - learc83 6y ago
    >The point is a US passport is great to live in the US, that's it. Yes assuming you never want to work or live in the US, compared to a Swiss passport and a handful of other passports that's true. Compared to 90% of countries on the planet, it's not true. >the IRS issue is a real problem in a country where the median salary is just under 85k$ per year (no need to be a rich guy). How many dual US and Swiss citizens are making under under or anywhere near the median income? It's very hard to migrate to Switzerland, so my guess is not many.
    - greatpatton 6y ago
      A median is a median... and if you are a married couple very easily. But it is also the case if you have a EU-US dual citizenship. So in fact that's a lot of person. Also it's not that complicated to migrate to Switzerland is you are an American with a EU passport (get an Italian passport if one of your grand-parents was Italian and bingo), and that's the case of a lot of people. In Switzerland every year between 500-700 people renounce their US citizenship... so at least a few.
      - learc83 6y ago
        >A median is a median >in a country where the median salary is just under 85k$ per year If $85k is the median salary for the country, that says nothing about the median salary of US expats in the country. > But it is also the case if you have a EU-US dual citizenship How is that relevant when we were taking about people with US and Swiss citizenship? >Also it's not that complicated to migrate to Switzerland is you are an American with a EU passport (get an Italian passport if one of your grand-parents was Italian and bingo), It's not that hard, you just need to have an Italian Grandparent, go through the process (which can take years depending on where you live), move to Switzerland, find a job, then live there for 10 years.
oarsinsync 6y ago
My American colleagues living in London tend to disagree with you. It’s easy to accept the additional taxation when it’s not happening to you. When Uncle Sam is picking your pocket and giving little back in return, it’s a different story.
- ericmay 6y ago
  So surely you sympathize with those living in the U.S. who feel the same way?
  - oarsinsync 6y ago
    I do sympathise with people who are unhappy about being taxed by a government of a country they do not live in. I do not sympathise with people who are unhappy about being taxed by the government of the country they do live in. EDIT: That's not to say I love the rate at which I get taxed at, but everyone around you is subject to the same rules, and so you're preaching (complaining) to the choir. Immigrants suffering double taxation, both by the nation they live in, and the nation they're a citizen of, strikes me as massively unfair by comparison.
    - ericmay 6y ago
      I think many people would argue they are paying taxes and not getting much in return. There are probably very few people immigrants making over $100,000 as well. It probably keeps people from making a bunch of money off of US-based businesses and then skating off to Vietnam or something.
sneeze-slayer 6y ago
But this introduces a huge pain and expense of preparing US taxes every year even if you live abroad and don't step foot on US soil. Additionally, tons of foreign banks won't let you set up accounts even if you live in their country due to FATCA reporting requirements for US citizens. Finally, on a more conceptual level, is it fair that US citizens have to pay taxes where they get nothing in return? Especially when no other developed country has citizenship-based taxation?
- RhysU 6y ago
  If a US citizen gets nothing in return for their taxes why would anyone want the citizenship?

strictnein 6y ago

> "An EU passport would vastly outrank the US passport in terms of economic opportunity" EU GDP: $18.29 Trillion US GDP: $20.54 Trillion And that's before factoring in per capita differences, which tip the scales even farther to the US. Moving around the EU is now as easy as moving around the US, so congrats I guess?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]