11 ms·

Hi, I work as a consultant around AI, and I want everyone here to know: every company with a brick-and-mortar wants to do this. The barriers are (1) tech stack

• goatinaboat 6y ago
  it's pricing based on your past (and current!) behavior How will that work in a brick-and-mortar store where there is a price label on everything?
  • zapdrive 6y ago
    A digital label that shows price after looking at your face?
    • lotsofpulp 6y ago
      Seems simpler to send coupons for specific products to specific people.
  • aroch 6y ago
    The easiest is to send e-coupons to frequent shoppers?
  • Mediterraneo10 6y ago
    Aren't there already some experimental stores where you have to scan an item with your phone in order to find out the price? If the app is linked to your identity, then you could see a different price than others based on your demographics and past purchasing behavior.
  • glidej 6y ago
    The same way coupons work in drug stores already; there's a stated price and then there's the price with SuperSaver™ membership, which you have to pull out of their app and could be subject to any number of personalizations, real-time or not.
    • dexterdog 6y ago
      But both of those prices are always shown and you don't usually have to be a member of anything to get them as the clerk will just use the generic code. At most self checkouts there is an option for forgotten card which lets you bypass the need for an account.
      • JumpCrisscross 6y ago
        > both of those prices are always shown This isn't necessary. There could be a public price and a private price. > there is an option for forgotten card which lets you bypass the need for an account Neither is this.
        • ballenf 6y ago
          There already are private prices -- the result of targeted coupons that certain customers get. Those coupons are tied to the SuperSaver(tm) account and aren't transferable.
      • glidej 6y ago
        Right, those won't go away. These offers will likely be in addition to those and because they're more targeted they will be higher value. CVS already has specific offers that you can only get in their app with your specific membership, Target uses their Circle membership to accomplish it. The medium to deliver this customer experience are out there right now, but they're all working on adding signals to inform which offers you get.
    • the_pwner224 6y ago
      Every time I check out at a Kroger store I tell the cashier that I would like to get a membership card. They don't require you to give a phone number until you register the card after the checkout - which I don't do because I already got the benefit of the card at checkout. This won't work at stores that require phone number first, and still leaves open credit card-based tracking - for that you actually lose the few % cash back if you want to use cash instead.
  • brassattax 6y ago
    Ever seen the digital price tags at Kohl's? I can imagine a scenario where you walk in and the prices change! More likely, though, it would be pricing things differently at stores based on demographics. Regional grocery store chains do this - We have Stop & Shop here in New England, and if I go to a store closer to an urban area, the prices are lower on some items and higher on other items.
    • goatinaboat 6y ago
      Ever seen the digital price tags at Kohl's? I am in Wales, we don't have such things here. I think I'd be reluctant to shop anywhere that did this. What would be the point of working hard to earn more money if all the prices went up around you so you were no better off than before?
      • cpitman 6y ago
        Which is why they would never do that. They would instead start with high prices then bring them down, ie you "saved" money.
  • curiousllama 6y ago
    Coupons, upselling, personalized-proactive-ads. JC Penny showed people would rather pay MORE with a 70% discount than less with no discount. Jack up the price, get everyone to download your sh*tty little spyware app, and give everyone the thrill of "I got a free doodad!"
    • potta_coffee 6y ago
      One business that's already great at this is Target. I've observed through personal experience, they will send a coupon for a really great price on items you normally buy like diapers or formula, if you have kids, to try to get you back in the store. They're not sending that diaper coupon to every customer.
      • mrguyorama 6y ago
        Nevermind the fact that Target is basically more expensive, red Walmart. If you do most of your shopping at Target you've already self selected as someone more vulnerable to advertising and feel good stuff.
        • ultrarunner 6y ago
          Maybe basically, but at least in my area there are far fewer instances of people wearing pajamas in Target and it's much closer to where I live. I don't think you can draw 100% equivalence between the two stores enough to support an assertion of an advertising-vulnerable demographic.
        • WWLink 6y ago
          lol, out here in los angeles, they've been remodeling targets to look like walmarts - like using polished concrete floors and skinnier, cheaper looking checkout stands with flimsy conveyer belts. The most irritating thing was when they replaced the target cafe with.. nothing. Some stores have a starbucks, others have.. nothing. Oh yeah, and Target pharmacy was sweet. CVS pharmacy inside target isn't as good. That said, they are still somewhat faster and have way better hours. The walmart where I live is only open until 10pm and it has 10+ minute checkout lines. The target is open until midnight. OTOH, online ordering: Walmart is often better than amazon. Target's online ordering sucks.
  • jedberg 6y ago
    At Safeway (supermarket chain across the Western US) they have a thing called "Just4U". It's a set of deals in your app that are only for you. I imagine it would be similar to that.
  • ldec 6y ago
    Companies use this data to raise the price of items that are mostly bought by people with a lower sensitivity to price. A famous example is Tesco in the UK that worked out they could double the prices of certain cheeses with no impact on sales volume, because the people that bought those cheeses mostly bought the most expensive brands in other categories (they were probably higher income people).
  • take_a_breath 6y ago
    What about AR glasses with prices dropping for each individual the longer they stay in the store?
  • LeifCarrotson 6y ago
    I get a piece of mail from my local Meijer (midwest grocery/department store, think Walmart) every week on Thursday, a couple days before my grocery run on Saturday. It contains about a dozen coupons for the exact items I typically buy: - Store-brand milk, 2% - Honey bunches of oats with almonds cereal - Bone-in chicken breasts, family pack - Noosa strawberry-rhubarb yogurt - Old spice aluminum-free deodorant, if it's been a few weeks since my last purchase etc. etc. etc. It's not the generic "all Pepsi/Nestle products on sale" mailers. It's the exact stuff I've bought in the past. And yes, I admit I'm a creature of habit. There's little $4/hour coupon clipping or recipe selection required (I hate that), I can pretty much shop my normal list and then swipe the coupons across the scanner. And tell you what, if I skip a week at Meijer and go to Trader Joe's instead, there's likely a few more coupons for a little deeper discount the next week. It's more than a little creepy. I have no idea how they got my home address, maybe scanned from my driver's license when I bought alcohol? And I don't use a store membership, they must be just tying my debit card number to my shopping habits.
    • dbbljack 6y ago
      When I first got the personalized coupons I called Meijer and asked them who they bought my address from, they refused to answer.
    • astura 6y ago
      If you use a credit card to pay and they datashare with another company where you used the same credit card to pay and the other company has your address, Meijer could have gotten it from them. I have a walmart.com account - they add my in-store purchases to my Walmart.com history when I pay with a credit card I used at walmart.com.
• dilandau 6y ago
  (triggered) I mean, I carry my phone around in my pocket, so I kinda expect at least big Google is watching me. And probably the cell network. And probably the government, passively. But RITE AID? What the hell, a fucking pharmacy? I mean: the customer is typically just buying whatever their doctor prescribes them. I guess they have aisles of cosmetics and cold medicine and stuff, but still, this seems remarkable for its banality and at the same time invasiveness. It's the worst kind of evil: stupid evil.
  • djsumdog 6y ago
    I switched to a PinePhone recently and have another I'm putting Andoird+miniG on, so I have at least one thing out of the way. I never sign up for loyalty programs (phone number), but I still pay with a debt card (I'm not sure if store can track people without violating card ISO agreements, but I suspect they can with hashed numbers), so I'm not full RMS/cash only. As far as shrink prevention .. eh. I don't have a big issue with that. I've watch a woman just walk out with shit in an inner city store. Dude in line was like "She just walked out with two wine bottles," and the cashier was like, "She does that all the time. If the guard is here, he'll stop her. I'm not paid enough." The article makes a big deal about certain neighborhoods. I'm pretty sure they just selected the stores with the highest reported shoplifting losses. Trying to read more into it is giving the data more intrinsic intelligence or prejudice than it has.
    • grogenaut 6y ago
      Fricking bevmo makes you get a SMS message to confirm your phone number.
  • bluedino 6y ago
    >> But RITE AID? What the hell, a fucking pharmacy? I mean: the customer is typically just buying whatever their doctor prescribes them. I don't know about Rite Aid, but Walgreen's is pretty much the 'corner store' in many neighborhoods.
    • phyzome 6y ago
• normalnorm 6y ago
  > The barriers are (1) tech stack, (2) use case, and (3) ethics, in that order. This sounds like a line that some good writer trying to make fun of silicon valley would come up with. If that's the case, good job!
• ramraj07 6y ago
  I assumed that they'd just link it up with credit cards even if I refuse to give my phone number. Or, maybe they'll invent some common encrypted face fingerprint with which they can identify customers across companies.
  • sovnade 6y ago
    Most of the small indi-shop ipad POS devices do this already. If I swipe my card at one, I get an email automatically with my reciept. At some point in the last few years I must have put my email address in one and obviously it's shared.
  • curiousllama 6y ago
    Credit cards are harder, because people switch those. I have had the same phone number for over a decade. This way, they keep historical data in the same profile.
• starkd 6y ago
  I understand the vision for this technology involves marketing information, but this article is mostly about security and protection against theft. If it is useful for that alone, that would make it an invaluable tool. The regulations to protect consumer privacy should be careful to keep that distinction in mind. We all pay the costs of theft.
  • thephyber 6y ago
    Let's give everyone a unique number and a barcode on their wrist. It's useful for "security and protection against theft". This has been tried before. There is a reason gun rights advocates have lobbied Congress to prevent the FBI and ATF from keeping digital databases on gun owners from the applications created when buying a gun. Your digital facial likeness will almost certainly be collected, collated with other data points, then both data mined and resold to data brokers. One of them will no doubt be dumb enough to leave their DB open to the wide internet and your data will be leaked and you will have no recourse because you can't prove damages in the US legal system and you aren't the customer of the data broker.
• dmitrygr 6y ago
  Always give (your area code) 867 5309 It is registered in almost all systems already and you'll get the discounts. They get nothing (except the knowledge that apparently Jenny buys everything). Plus, nowadays most people working at checkout don't even know the significance of that number and don't bat an eye when you give it
  • lozaning 6y ago
    This number is also almost always good for like a dollar off per gallon of gas at stations that are tied into the grocery loyalty program. Lots of SafeWay's have their own stations for example.
  • vetinari 6y ago
    They might notice the pattern it makes while they are typing it. But then, some won't notice if you say your number is 314 1592...
    • gruez 6y ago
      > They might notice the pattern it makes while they are typing it. that's only a problem if the minimum wage worker behind the counter cares, which I doubt.
      • blaser-waffle 6y ago
        Bingo. They're not being paid any more or any less per hour if you get a discount. Why not do something nice for people? Plus those cards often have points or other rewards, e.g. spend 2400 points and get these cucumbers for $1 off, so it's a win for them too.
    • thephyber 6y ago
      Corporate data miners care if you reuse someone else's registered phone number. The cashier doesn't. Their incentive is to keep the checkout line moving. Sometimes they will even offer you a card at the register to get you a discount (not sure why). The manager's incentive is to keep customers content and returning. BTW, what is the significance of that specific phone number?
• jbob2000 6y ago
  At the end of the day, I can rest easy knowing that all of this is to shove products in my face that I still don’t want or have any use for. All of the analytics of the internet, all of this data collection and machine learning - all to show my a picture of a $69 leather jacket. Or a Muse headband. Or a Peloton bike. I’m not a consumer, these tricks don’t work on me.
  • nkohari 6y ago
    > I’m not a consumer, these tricks don’t work on me. So you're typing this comment from your yurt using a borrowed computer or something?
    • jbob2000 6y ago
      Yes, every once in a while there is a product that does not need advertising or aggressive marketing, where it's value is immediately and plainly obvious to everyone watching. Buying one of these things does not enter you into the consumer-product-churn-rat-race.
      • grugagag 6y ago
        I'm in the same boat, i'm not a consumer as they'd want us to be, I don't buy into any bullshit marketing, I never buy advertised stuff that passes my add blockers, I don't watch TV and when I unavoidably see billboards outside I make a mental note not to buy those products specifically because all the money spent on adverting will be paid by the customer in the end and Im not that sucker. I think advertising is toxic and obnoxious, but that's not everybody's opinion. I have some acquaintances who don't bother to avoid advertising and might as well find them fun even if they've seen them hundreds of times. I have no hope for these people, but they are are model consumers and somebody's plan is working accordingly
    • rolph 6y ago
      i prefer my quonset hut, and my computer constructed from still functioning e-waste
• seebetter 6y ago
  If your real name is discernible from your HN profile, and you own a car, I could likely get your license plate. If you live in a big city, I could search your license plate and find locations where you were. Alternatively, I could find your address, then search for license plates that drove near your house. It's not a perfect system but it has millions of records. And there must be other correlated databases that I don't know about. The only things we can do is use fake/different numbers at stores, use prepaid or business debit cards and have burner iPhones and rooted Androids. Register your license plate in corporations names, and don't put your utilities in your real name. If we just decorrelate the data, and falsify it, then we could have a chance.
  • jjeaff 6y ago
    Where would you search license plate data without being law enforcement?
    • deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    • coolspot 6y ago
      Private license plate collectors with paid access for private investigators.
      • sunsetMurk 6y ago
        any links to providers of that service/data?
        • tantalor 6y ago
          20 seconds of Googling: https://www.intelhawkpi.com/category/asset-search https://www.intelhawkpi.com/category/asset-search http://www.uslicenseplatesearch.com/ http://www.uslicenseplatesearch.com/ https://spycenter.com/product/license-plate-lookup/ https://spycenter.com/product/license-plate-lookup/ https://www.irbsearch.com/vehicle-sightings.html https://www.irbsearch.com/vehicle-sightings.html
• gxx 6y ago
  Another good reason to wear a face mask other than protecting yourself from Covid-19...
  • devmunchies 6y ago
    huh... and here i thought most people wore them due to social pressure.
• _bohm 6y ago
  I mean, one thing we all can certainly be doing is making a concerted effort to shop more at our local independent businesses. Plus, this comes with the added benefit that it keeps money circulating in our communities for longer!
  • OkGoDoIt 6y ago
    This sounds good in theory, but my corner store sells a bottle of soda for $3 that I can get at Safeway for $1. Or a bag of chips for $2 that I can get 2 for a dollar at Safeway or Target. Sunscreen for $12 instead of the $6 (or as low as $3 on sale/clearance) at a big box store. And most of the stuff I want they just don’t have at all. It’s not like a 10% “shop local” tax, it’s really unjustifiable the insane price differences. I’d be better off just donating to a local charity. And to the original point of reducing tracking, for Safeway/etc rewards numbers just use random local phone numbers and pay cash if that’s your priority. Better than paying more than double price for limited selection.
    • ska 6y ago
      That's a bit of an apples-to-oranges comparison though. Things are more expensive at the bodega partially for convenience after all, they aren't directly competing with Safeway. In a lot of cases there is an in between. I live near an independent full service grocery store (they have 2 locations) which isn't the cheapest in town and isn't the most expensive. They have a good selection. If they are 10% more expensive, I'm happy to support them.
      • jniedrauer 6y ago
        > Things are more expensive at the bodega partially for convenience What, specifically is being said here? Higher prices don't somehow make transactions "more convenient."
        • mrguyorama 6y ago
          Typically the bodega is within a couple minute walk, while the large name brand stores in my area are more like a ten minute drive
• wasdfff 6y ago
  Now that facemasks are normalized in the American public, surely this tech is pretty inert now? I imagine people will start wearing their masks for any cold or flu, not just COVID, like other countries have been doing for years. Any would be shoplift is now socially allowed to conceal their face at all times. And if you weren’t a shop lift, it sounds like taking public transit, walking, or biking, and paying with cash will be king for the privacy conscious. At least this will force a few people into better mobility habits.
  • hanniabu 6y ago
    tin foil hat I'm going to go out on a limb and say the anti-mask campaigns were started by parties that have vested interests in facial tracking (I don't have any evidence to support this assumption).
    • thephyber 6y ago
      There were anti-mask leagues in 1918. I'm pretty sure those weren't funded by companies pushing facial tracking computers/services.
  • knightofmars 6y ago
    >Now that facemasks are normalized in the American public, surely this tech is pretty inert now? No, facial recognition is based on the distance of points on your face (nose, center of eyes, eyebrows, etc). A mask only covers the lower half of your face. It may make facial recognition slightly less accurate but it still works. Casinos have been using facial recognition for some time to detect individuals who have been banned. These banned individuals have gone as far as hiring professional make-up artists to change their appearances but facial recognition still works due to the fact that certain points on the face (e.g. distance between eyes) cannot be altered. The accuracy is reduced but there's still a large enough confidence interval to cause an intervention by casino security.
    • shard 6y ago
      In that case, are masks + sunglasses enough? Or should a hat that covers the ears be thrown in as well? I think that combination should still pass as fairly normal, especially in sunny locales.
• potta_coffee 6y ago
  Shop at local businesses as much as possible. In my area, this is somewhat viable. I'm not holding my breath on much of the populace actually doing this though. If we haven't boycotted Walmart by now, we're not ever going to.
  • frogpelt 6y ago
    In other words, shop at the places where they already know you and they won’t need facial recognition software.
    • potta_coffee 6y ago
      Having relationships with real-world people is really nothing like a faceless corporation compiling a database on you and I think you probably know that. Edit: I may have misunderstood the tone of your comment. Are you implying it's bad that people at your local store might know who you are? I should have my coffee.
      • frogpelt 6y ago
        Yeah, sorry. I should been more clear with my tone. I don't think it's bad for the local business to know who you are. I can see why it sounded that way.
    • swsieber 6y ago
      Yup - then the whole world won't be able to automatically know you. It seems like a decent trade-off. We've already been using that model for many, many years.
  • ultrarunner 6y ago
    Unfortunately a lot of local business seems to be "here, let me order that for you (more slowly, with a mark up instead of a return policy)." Most people I know genuinely want to support local business, but simply can't because local businesses do not provide them any additional value for the often higher price.
• TallGuyShort 6y ago
  May I ask what you mean when you list the use case as a barrier? Just that they know they could do something, but exactly what to do and how to finish it is the hard part?
• grugagag 6y ago
  I guess I'll be wearing a mask well after the pandemic is over.
• curiousllama 6y ago
  I think this is the first time ever that “I am a consultant” _increased_ the credibility of the subsequent claim
• stjohnswarts 6y ago
  The USA really needs a new amendment to protect people from digital surveillance both from governments and corporations (businesses). In olden times there was a limit with mobility and technology. That is no longer the case. A similar motion in the United Nations would also be useful but with Russia and China 2 of the 5 members of the SC I don't see that ever happening.
• rbecker 6y ago
  > it's pricing based on your past (and current!) behavior; One solution could be to legislate uniform pricing. Would at least take away the incentive in many cases.
  • gpanders 6y ago
    This would almost certainly raise prices across the board, which would end up hurting poor people. Price targeting can be (and often is) a useful and mutually beneficial practice. Obviously it can be taken too far as we're seeing here. I think enforcing privacy rights of consumers would be a better legislative goal than uniform pricing.
    • rbecker 6y ago
      But price targeting effectively increases information asymmetry. It would be a truly bizarre turn of events when the party on the wrong side of that asymmetry would benefit from making the asymmetry worse. The price of a loaf of bread will probably just rise, for each individual, until everyone is reduced to different shades of poor, no matter how much they earn.