5 ms·

> A trending search in our data for “myocardial infarction” shows how Google has piled up its products at the top. It returned: - Google’s dictionary definitio

> A trending search in our data for “myocardial infarction” shows how Google has piled up its products at the top. It returned: - Google’s dictionary definition. - A “people also ask” box that expanded to answer related questions without leaving the search results page. - A “knowledge panel,” which is an abridged encyclopedia entry with various links. - And a “related conditions” carousel leading to various new Google searches for other diseases. I don't know, I'm conflicted on examples like this. I see the point the article is going for, but I think it's better exemplified by the fact that there's a lot of advertising space taken up at the premium, top of the page on search results. This example is not Google advertising itself so much as Google changing the features of the search engine itself. It's not emphasizing its own search results over "organic" search results, it's deemphasizing search results altogether in favor of quick, curated answers. Most of the time I can quickly tell what the "organic" source of the direct answer is. I like that. Is there a way we could get quick curated answers like this without deemphasizing search results? Is that something most people would actually want? I feel a better point of contention is the number of ads, which I care more about.

Angostura 6y ago
> This example is not Google advertising itself so much as Google changing the features of the search engine itself. What it is an example of in my view is Google increasingly attemnpting to keep you on its site by scraping the information from other sites and displaying it. Originally Google scraped the sites solely to build a better search index.
kevingadd 6y ago
The definition of "search" or what it means to type something into the google search input field has changed over time, and that's probably the root of this. It used to mean "show me web pages related to this input string", and some of those search results were sponsored (ads). Now it's interpreted more as "inform me about this input string" or "please help me with this", like a Siri or Google Assistant (though not necessarily in natural language). When you view it as a "please assist me" query it makes sense to introduce things like answerboxes, related queries, embedded images or translations, etc. But that is VERY MUCH not "search" anymore. It's quite possible that most people using a search engine actually want an Assistant, so google's new behavior is ideal for them. But where do you go when you actually want a search engine? You see people complain that over time Google has become worse as a search engine - using it to search for programming topics is definitely worse than it used to be, and its search results in general are often full of astroturfed pinterest or stackoverflow pages.
- TomMarius 6y ago
  What is "search" and "search engine"? Are these words with well defined legal meaning (as you seem to use them like that)? To you, a software person, search might be to look up and compare a string with a pile of other strings. To non-sw people, it is to look for the correct (abstract or concrete) thing/answer. Why should your definition win?
  - nitrogen 6y ago
    Why does it have to be only one winner?
cowpig 6y ago
You like it in the myopic sense of the word. In the way you like a big cake that sits in front of you, even if eating that cake is going to be bad for your health. Google's monopolistic business practices are the same: they are convenient in the short-term for you, but they are destroying healthy industries. Over time the result won't be something you like.
- JadeNB 6y ago
  > Google's monopolistic business practices are the same: they are convenient in the short-term for you, but they are destroying healthy industries. Over time the result won't be something you like. Amazon—which genuinely used to be a great and reliable shopping experience, and made a bunch of changes that looked user focussed—is a great example of this.
boogies 6y ago
IMHO a ““related conditions” carousel leading to various new Google searches for other diseases” is an ad for a Google Search with more ads. But on “a way we could get quick curated answers like this without deemphasizing search results”, one way to start would be to offer some instant answers as tabs next to the ones for images, news, videos etc., like the “Meanings” and “Definitions¨ tabs here https://duckduckgo.com/?q=boogie https://duckduckgo.com/?q=boogie, some down among the organic results like the videos here https://duckduckgo.com/?q=how+to+exit+vim https://duckduckgo.com/?q=how+to+exit+vim, and on wide screens, some as side bars like the SO one at that last link.
chris_f 6y ago
"Is there a way we could get quick curated answers like this without deemphasizing search results?" Yes, here is an example of how it could work: https://www.runnaroo.com/search?term=myocardial+infarction https://www.runnaroo.com/search?term=myocardial+infarction Disclaimer, I made this website.
- elpool2 6y ago
  But this website also deemphasizes search results in favor of curated answers, just like Google.
  - jefftk 6y ago
    When I run the search on mobile I see six screens of information scraped from Wikipedia and NIH before it starts showing organic links. This is good user experience, but it's the same "problem" that the original article is objecting to.
    - chris_f 6y ago
      "When I run the search on mobile I see six screens of information scraped from Wikipedia and NIH before it starts showing organic links." That is a fair criticism for mobile where the sidebar collapses to the top. On desktop, organic results take up the majority of the screen and the curated results are shown only in the sidebar. With limited screen space on mobile it is difficult to see multiple sections of results at the same time. The only change I could think of would be to adjust the CSS so that the sidebar collapses bellow the organic results.
      - jefftk 6y ago
        I like it the way it is!
  - chris_f 6y ago
    "But this website also deemphasizes search results in favor of curated answers, just like Google." That is not correct. On desktop, organic search results take up the middle 60% of the screen with nothing above them. The curated results are in the sidebar.
zentiggr 6y ago
Maybe Google needs to take the final step in this evolution. Let's have Google show nothing but quick answers, nothing but their own info boxes etc. No search results, nothing external. That way, anyone looking for any other results HAS to leave Google in order to find anything. And Google can pander to the percentage of people who honestly don't know or care that there's a web. Are there enough of us who would avoid Google if we knew 100% that we would never see a reference to anywhere outside of their own properties?
- thatguy0900 6y ago
  Their info boxes are all scraped from other sites, would they still be able to legally scrape sites and display them like that without giving any links to actually follow?
  - untoreh 6y ago
    the data that google shows from websites is provided by websites as structured markup, websites started providing this with the expectation that it would provide better ranking. Nowadays, however, google could probably just render the same thing thorugh nlp without any additional hints from the sourced pages
    - ricardo81 6y ago
      Not all of it is structured. I've seen numerous examples where the structure is inferred from HTML markup, i.e. not so structured. I get your point about structured data laying it out on a plate, so to speak.
    - ricardo81 6y ago
      For example https://docs.house.gov/meetings/JU/JU05/20190716/109793/HHRG-116-JU05-20190716-SD015.pdf https://docs.house.gov/meetings/JU/JU05/20190716/109793/HHRG...

Angostura 6y ago

> This example is not Google advertising itself so much as Google changing the features of the search engine itself. What it is an example of in my view is Google increasingly attemnpting to keep you on its site by scraping the information from other sites and displaying it. Originally Google scraped the sites solely to build a better search index.

kevingadd 6y ago

The definition of "search" or what it means to type something into the google search input field has changed over time, and that's probably the root of this. It used to mean "show me web pages related to this input string", and some of those search results were sponsored (ads). Now it's interpreted more as "inform me about this input string" or "please help me with this", like a Siri or Google Assistant (though not necessarily in natural language). When you view it as a "please assist me" query it makes sense to introduce things like answerboxes, related queries, embedded images or translations, etc. But that is VERY MUCH not "search" anymore. It's quite possible that most people using a search engine actually want an Assistant, so google's new behavior is ideal for them. But where do you go when you actually want a search engine? You see people complain that over time Google has become worse as a search engine - using it to search for programming topics is definitely worse than it used to be, and its search results in general are often full of astroturfed pinterest or stackoverflow pages.

TomMarius 6y ago
What is "search" and "search engine"? Are these words with well defined legal meaning (as you seem to use them like that)? To you, a software person, search might be to look up and compare a string with a pile of other strings. To non-sw people, it is to look for the correct (abstract or concrete) thing/answer. Why should your definition win?
- nitrogen 6y ago
  Why does it have to be only one winner?

cowpig 6y ago

You like it in the myopic sense of the word. In the way you like a big cake that sits in front of you, even if eating that cake is going to be bad for your health. Google's monopolistic business practices are the same: they are convenient in the short-term for you, but they are destroying healthy industries. Over time the result won't be something you like.

JadeNB 6y ago
> Google's monopolistic business practices are the same: they are convenient in the short-term for you, but they are destroying healthy industries. Over time the result won't be something you like. Amazon—which genuinely used to be a great and reliable shopping experience, and made a bunch of changes that looked user focussed—is a great example of this.

boogies 6y ago

IMHO a ““related conditions” carousel leading to various new Google searches for other diseases” is an ad for a Google Search with more ads. But on “a way we could get quick curated answers like this without deemphasizing search results”, one way to start would be to offer some instant answers as tabs next to the ones for images, news, videos etc., like the “Meanings” and “Definitions¨ tabs here https://duckduckgo.com/?q=boogie https://duckduckgo.com/?q=boogie, some down among the organic results like the videos here https://duckduckgo.com/?q=how+to+exit+vim https://duckduckgo.com/?q=how+to+exit+vim, and on wide screens, some as side bars like the SO one at that last link.

chris_f 6y ago

"Is there a way we could get quick curated answers like this without deemphasizing search results?" Yes, here is an example of how it could work: https://www.runnaroo.com/search?term=myocardial+infarction https://www.runnaroo.com/search?term=myocardial+infarction Disclaimer, I made this website.

elpool2 6y ago
But this website also deemphasizes search results in favor of curated answers, just like Google.
- jefftk 6y ago
  When I run the search on mobile I see six screens of information scraped from Wikipedia and NIH before it starts showing organic links. This is good user experience, but it's the same "problem" that the original article is objecting to.
  - chris_f 6y ago
    "When I run the search on mobile I see six screens of information scraped from Wikipedia and NIH before it starts showing organic links." That is a fair criticism for mobile where the sidebar collapses to the top. On desktop, organic results take up the majority of the screen and the curated results are shown only in the sidebar. With limited screen space on mobile it is difficult to see multiple sections of results at the same time. The only change I could think of would be to adjust the CSS so that the sidebar collapses bellow the organic results.
    - jefftk 6y ago
      I like it the way it is!
- chris_f 6y ago
  "But this website also deemphasizes search results in favor of curated answers, just like Google." That is not correct. On desktop, organic search results take up the middle 60% of the screen with nothing above them. The curated results are in the sidebar.

zentiggr 6y ago

Maybe Google needs to take the final step in this evolution. Let's have Google show nothing but quick answers, nothing but their own info boxes etc. No search results, nothing external. That way, anyone looking for any other results HAS to leave Google in order to find anything. And Google can pander to the percentage of people who honestly don't know or care that there's a web. Are there enough of us who would avoid Google if we knew 100% that we would never see a reference to anywhere outside of their own properties?

thatguy0900 6y ago
Their info boxes are all scraped from other sites, would they still be able to legally scrape sites and display them like that without giving any links to actually follow?
- untoreh 6y ago
  the data that google shows from websites is provided by websites as structured markup, websites started providing this with the expectation that it would provide better ranking. Nowadays, however, google could probably just render the same thing thorugh nlp without any additional hints from the sourced pages
  - ricardo81 6y ago
    Not all of it is structured. I've seen numerous examples where the structure is inferred from HTML markup, i.e. not so structured. I get your point about structured data laying it out on a plate, so to speak.
  - ricardo81 6y ago
    For example https://docs.house.gov/meetings/JU/JU05/20190716/109793/HHRG-116-JU05-20190716-SD015.pdf https://docs.house.gov/meetings/JU/JU05/20190716/109793/HHRG...