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It's worth remembering that just because you have a bubble of belief/knowledge it doesn't automatically make it scientific fact rather than anecdotally coincidi

by corin_ 6y ago

It's worth remembering that just because you have a bubble of belief/knowledge it doesn't automatically make it scientific fact rather than anecdotally coinciding with some science. For example, yes there is some research suggesting zinc (and related, vitamin D) may be very relevant with covid-19, but there isn't yet definitive understanding among experts yet alone us HN commenters. Anecdotally: I often feel better after eating a pizza, dating back to before covid-19 existed, and despite my zinc levels being fine. I just really fucking love pizza. All of us, whether we are trying to read every research paper released or not following anything except newspaper headlines, need to keep reminding ourselves that just as the experts will keep revising their beliefs to fit new findings, we need to keep checking if our own knowledge is correct, or if it might be either outdated and/or based on cognitive biases. Personally I'm recommending friends/family to make sure that they are getting enough of various vitamins/minerals, while being very clear that my suggestion is a "can't do any harm to have the right levels of whatever" rather than "I'm sure this will help with covid".

DoreenMichele 6y ago
It's worth remembering that just because you have a bubble of belief/knowledge it doesn't automatically make it scientific fact rather than anecdotally coinciding with some science. I'm well aware of that. I'm just trying to say that it made an especially big impression on me because of my personal experience, not that my anecdote makes it scientific fact. I'm still appalled that they know it causes blood issues and are not connecting the dots between that and the feet issues. The article doesn't explicitly say that feet issues of that sort are consistent with blood issues, though that is an extremely well-established scientific fact. I paid accident claims for five years. As part of that job, I read medical records all day. I paid for foot amputations and we had to sometimes try to decide "Was this really an accident? Or was this really a complication of diabetes?" So I'm not just talking out my ass here. I completed a Certified Life and Health Insurance Specialist certificate. I also just do a lot of reading of medical stuff because of my own health issues. I'm pretty confident the blood issues are very well established at this point and have been for some time.
- corin_ 6y ago
  I'm not disputing your claims. Not because I specifically agree (or disagree) with them. Personally, I also consider myself in a pretty good position to judge this stuff, however I decided a while back that even when I think I'm sure I'm not going to tell it as a fact, especially online where other readers can't easily tell if corin_ or doreenmichele are making great points or deluded idiots. (A quick edit here: I didn't mean that to imply one or both of us are deluded or idiots. Just that neither of us are coming into this thread with "here are my qualifications and/or research to make me more than a random commenter".) My reply wasn't that you were wrong in your beliefs, however this part in particular: "And that led to an epiphany for me [...] So I got a pizza and then he felt vastly better. So the whole blood angle is cemented in my mind like "Clearly, this is a hard fact and..." My point is that even if you are 100% correct about the blood issues and zinc, you have literally described a one day process of epiphany to pizza to fact proven. Whether you're right or wrong overall, that's not how people should be forming opinions on fighting covid.
  - DoreenMichele 6y ago
    My point is that even if you are 100% correct about the blood issues and zinc, you have literally described a one day process of epiphany to pizza to fact proven. Whether you're right or wrong overall, that's not how people should be forming opinions on fighting covid. You are wildly misreading my comment. A professional researcher stated their opinion that there was something blood related -- that I didn't understand so I asked for clarification -- and then said something about zinc. I then went over our consumption habits, realized that we were eating a lot of zinc-rich foods we don't normally eat in large quantities and felt it was worth betting on "It's the zinc, like the researcher said." And that bet paid off for us -- though me and my oldest son both have a genetic disorder, so I'm absolutely not inclined to generalize from that. So I'm not recommending anything about how to fight covid. It's a personal anecdote about how this got cemented in my mind so clearly. That's it. Nothing more.
    - corin_ 6y ago
      Apologies for misreading your comment, but you did describe a pizza cementing your view. We all have cognitive biases, including the most intelligent, accomplished people anywhere. Plenty of research shows that the placebo effect is a very real phenomenon (even when we are told we're being given a placebo pill it can still help!) I wasn't trying to change your mind on anything covid related; just about how we all let anecdotes convince us of pre-existing beliefs. And even if you personally didn't need that lesson, I still think it needed to be explained for anyone reading your comments considering their implication that a one off pizza event was enough to impact your views (even if that's not how you intended the comment to mean). Edit to add: of course, the mechanisms behind cognitive biases can be helpful! If a doctor says X will help and then X does help, it's good that our brains automatically process that as being more likely true than if it hadn't worked. But they can be unhelpful, too.

by corin_ 6y ago

DoreenMichele 6y ago

It's worth remembering that just because you have a bubble of belief/knowledge it doesn't automatically make it scientific fact rather than anecdotally coinciding with some science. I'm well aware of that. I'm just trying to say that it made an especially big impression on me because of my personal experience, not that my anecdote makes it scientific fact. I'm still appalled that they know it causes blood issues and are not connecting the dots between that and the feet issues. The article doesn't explicitly say that feet issues of that sort are consistent with blood issues, though that is an extremely well-established scientific fact. I paid accident claims for five years. As part of that job, I read medical records all day. I paid for foot amputations and we had to sometimes try to decide "Was this really an accident? Or was this really a complication of diabetes?" So I'm not just talking out my ass here. I completed a Certified Life and Health Insurance Specialist certificate. I also just do a lot of reading of medical stuff because of my own health issues. I'm pretty confident the blood issues are very well established at this point and have been for some time.

corin_ 6y ago
I'm not disputing your claims. Not because I specifically agree (or disagree) with them. Personally, I also consider myself in a pretty good position to judge this stuff, however I decided a while back that even when I think I'm sure I'm not going to tell it as a fact, especially online where other readers can't easily tell if corin_ or doreenmichele are making great points or deluded idiots. (A quick edit here: I didn't mean that to imply one or both of us are deluded or idiots. Just that neither of us are coming into this thread with "here are my qualifications and/or research to make me more than a random commenter".) My reply wasn't that you were wrong in your beliefs, however this part in particular: "And that led to an epiphany for me [...] So I got a pizza and then he felt vastly better. So the whole blood angle is cemented in my mind like "Clearly, this is a hard fact and..." My point is that even if you are 100% correct about the blood issues and zinc, you have literally described a one day process of epiphany to pizza to fact proven. Whether you're right or wrong overall, that's not how people should be forming opinions on fighting covid.
- DoreenMichele 6y ago
  My point is that even if you are 100% correct about the blood issues and zinc, you have literally described a one day process of epiphany to pizza to fact proven. Whether you're right or wrong overall, that's not how people should be forming opinions on fighting covid. You are wildly misreading my comment. A professional researcher stated their opinion that there was something blood related -- that I didn't understand so I asked for clarification -- and then said something about zinc. I then went over our consumption habits, realized that we were eating a lot of zinc-rich foods we don't normally eat in large quantities and felt it was worth betting on "It's the zinc, like the researcher said." And that bet paid off for us -- though me and my oldest son both have a genetic disorder, so I'm absolutely not inclined to generalize from that. So I'm not recommending anything about how to fight covid. It's a personal anecdote about how this got cemented in my mind so clearly. That's it. Nothing more.
  - corin_ 6y ago
    Apologies for misreading your comment, but you did describe a pizza cementing your view. We all have cognitive biases, including the most intelligent, accomplished people anywhere. Plenty of research shows that the placebo effect is a very real phenomenon (even when we are told we're being given a placebo pill it can still help!) I wasn't trying to change your mind on anything covid related; just about how we all let anecdotes convince us of pre-existing beliefs. And even if you personally didn't need that lesson, I still think it needed to be explained for anyone reading your comments considering their implication that a one off pizza event was enough to impact your views (even if that's not how you intended the comment to mean). Edit to add: of course, the mechanisms behind cognitive biases can be helpful! If a doctor says X will help and then X does help, it's good that our brains automatically process that as being more likely true than if it hadn't worked. But they can be unhelpful, too.