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Utterly ridiculous. Capitalist imperialism is certainly not without major issues, but comparing the harms to other imperial styles like colonialism is insane. S

Utterly ridiculous. Capitalist imperialism is certainly not without major issues, but comparing the harms to other imperial styles like colonialism is insane. Show me where US imperialism did anything comparable to the Holodomor or the atrocities of the Congo Free State.

deleted 6y ago
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claudeganon 6y ago
Vietnam, Indonesia, lots of Latin America in the 1980s? The US was also an actual colonialist power in the Philippines.
square_usual 6y ago
For a start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contras#Atrocities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contras#Atrocities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_mass_killings_of_1965%E2%80%9366#Foreign_involvement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_mass_killings_of_19...
tsimionescu 6y ago
Oh, there are many. Look at the Banana Republics, entire countries ruthlessly operated by US banana companies. Look at the numerous coups that the US orchestrated against democratic governments that weren't aligned to the interests: Iran (installing the Shah, arming him, convincing and aiding him to start a nuclear program), Vietnam, Nicaragua, Honduras, El Salvador, Cuba (unsuccessfully), Guatemala, Indonesia, and others. Their support of/demand for Indonesian occupation and massacres in Timor. Their support of Saddam Hussein's war against Iran (after the US-installed shah was deposed), including use of chemical weapons. The numerous atrocities committed by the CIA all over Latin America, either directly or through the guerrillas they were controlling - in Nicaragua, El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala etc. The many war crimes against Vietnam, including slaughter of civilians, burning crops and forests, destroying civilian infrastructure and hospitals. The unquestioning support of Israel's brutal occupation of Palestine, of Israel's possession of illegal nuclear weapons. The direct support of Saudi Arabia's slaughter of Yemeni civillians, with arms, know-how, embargoes, and diplomatic means. The long years of Black slavery in the US. Medical experiments on black troops. Forced sterilization of black men and women, and of those considered mentally unfit.
- solidasparagus 6y ago
  I'm not going to spend my time investigating and debating the relative awfulness each of those atrocities, but I think if you spent the time to dig in, you would see that there are pretty clear differences between the events you mention and the ones I did. It's simply untrue to say there isn't a difference between supporting horrible people and actively planning and executing a genocide. I grew up somewhere that was a victim of both European and American imperialism and they really aren't comparable. Even in some of the Latin American countries worst hurt by American capitalist imperialism, I think it would probably be unfair to say that it was equal to or worse than what European colonialism did.
  - tsimionescu 6y ago
    Oen thing is clear - Stalin was an unspeakably disgusting human, and his regime committed atrocities that few have equaled (Hitler beeing among those select few). I am not arguing against that. However, what the USSR did after Stalin is usually much milder than what the US did to their client states. It's true also that at least some, but most likely all, of the European colonial empires were atrocious as well. Discussing the relative merits of each disgusting atrocity is hard. Still, the things that the US did in Latin America and Asia are absolutely on that level of human misery. Tortured children, imposed famines, indiscriminate killing, use of systematic rape as a form of punishment/deterrence, forced labor, ethnically motivated power structures, deliberate destruction of democracy and of the industrial power of some of these countries, the whole shebang. So perhaps it would be unfair to say that it was worse than European colonialism, but it was certainly equal (though I fully admit, not as bad as Stalin: Probably worse than any later USSR leader)
CPLX 6y ago
Vietnam and Iraq are two that are very easy to bring to mind and widely known. Hundreds of thousands of people killed in and near their homes thousands of miles away from the U.S. for no real discernible reason. There are, of course, hundreds of other examples.
- solidasparagus 6y ago
  You think the Iraq/Vietnam wars are comparable to the Holodomor or the Congo Free State?
  - CPLX 6y ago
    Indeed. In fact, I just compared them.

deleted 6y ago

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claudeganon 6y ago

Vietnam, Indonesia, lots of Latin America in the 1980s? The US was also an actual colonialist power in the Philippines.

square_usual 6y ago

For a start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contras#Atrocities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contras#Atrocities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_mass_killings_of_1965%E2%80%9366#Foreign_involvement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_mass_killings_of_19...

tsimionescu 6y ago

Oh, there are many. Look at the Banana Republics, entire countries ruthlessly operated by US banana companies. Look at the numerous coups that the US orchestrated against democratic governments that weren't aligned to the interests: Iran (installing the Shah, arming him, convincing and aiding him to start a nuclear program), Vietnam, Nicaragua, Honduras, El Salvador, Cuba (unsuccessfully), Guatemala, Indonesia, and others. Their support of/demand for Indonesian occupation and massacres in Timor. Their support of Saddam Hussein's war against Iran (after the US-installed shah was deposed), including use of chemical weapons. The numerous atrocities committed by the CIA all over Latin America, either directly or through the guerrillas they were controlling - in Nicaragua, El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala etc. The many war crimes against Vietnam, including slaughter of civilians, burning crops and forests, destroying civilian infrastructure and hospitals. The unquestioning support of Israel's brutal occupation of Palestine, of Israel's possession of illegal nuclear weapons. The direct support of Saudi Arabia's slaughter of Yemeni civillians, with arms, know-how, embargoes, and diplomatic means. The long years of Black slavery in the US. Medical experiments on black troops. Forced sterilization of black men and women, and of those considered mentally unfit.

solidasparagus 6y ago
I'm not going to spend my time investigating and debating the relative awfulness each of those atrocities, but I think if you spent the time to dig in, you would see that there are pretty clear differences between the events you mention and the ones I did. It's simply untrue to say there isn't a difference between supporting horrible people and actively planning and executing a genocide. I grew up somewhere that was a victim of both European and American imperialism and they really aren't comparable. Even in some of the Latin American countries worst hurt by American capitalist imperialism, I think it would probably be unfair to say that it was equal to or worse than what European colonialism did.
- tsimionescu 6y ago
  Oen thing is clear - Stalin was an unspeakably disgusting human, and his regime committed atrocities that few have equaled (Hitler beeing among those select few). I am not arguing against that. However, what the USSR did after Stalin is usually much milder than what the US did to their client states. It's true also that at least some, but most likely all, of the European colonial empires were atrocious as well. Discussing the relative merits of each disgusting atrocity is hard. Still, the things that the US did in Latin America and Asia are absolutely on that level of human misery. Tortured children, imposed famines, indiscriminate killing, use of systematic rape as a form of punishment/deterrence, forced labor, ethnically motivated power structures, deliberate destruction of democracy and of the industrial power of some of these countries, the whole shebang. So perhaps it would be unfair to say that it was worse than European colonialism, but it was certainly equal (though I fully admit, not as bad as Stalin: Probably worse than any later USSR leader)

CPLX 6y ago

Vietnam and Iraq are two that are very easy to bring to mind and widely known. Hundreds of thousands of people killed in and near their homes thousands of miles away from the U.S. for no real discernible reason. There are, of course, hundreds of other examples.

solidasparagus 6y ago
You think the Iraq/Vietnam wars are comparable to the Holodomor or the Congo Free State?
- CPLX 6y ago
  Indeed. In fact, I just compared them.