4 ms·

"People that reach for this kind of decisions occasionally seem to still have a colonialism point of view, like 'they will do as told and we still stay in contr

by fsloth 6y ago

"People that reach for this kind of decisions occasionally seem to still have a colonialism point of view, like 'they will do as told and we still stay in control', " It's not necessary colonialist as such, merely takes the past history as implications of future patterns. The so called colonialist powers were ahead in the game from 1700's up to the middle of the 20th century. Colonialism coincided with the rise of industrialization and science. The so called "colonized" nations did not have the chance to utilize these and rise up to their full human potential. I think a good historical example is that of Japan. Japan was effectively a medieval state in 1850 when the Perry expedition forced it to the modern era [0]. And 50 years later they beat a major world power in a technological military engagement in the Battle of Tsushima [1] against Russia! Gaining 500 years of advancements in technology in 50 years really amazing. But it really just reflects that we are all human, and all successes are due standing in the shoulder of past giants. And late comers to the game still have those same shoulder to stand on. I suppose, then, half a century - or, two generations - is a good rule of thumb on how long it takes for a sovereign power to play catchup and to leapfrog to current "state of the art" just as long as it has a functioning state. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perry_Expedition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perry_Expedition [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tsushima https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tsushima

lioeters 6y ago
The historical example of Japan absorbing knowledge and technology, leap-frogging to the modern era, is a good support for your argument. There are fascinating artifacts from the period following Japan's opening up to foreign trade, reminiscent of European science in the Renaissance era - with an Asian twist. I'd like to point out though, that there was a steady "leak" of technology, or rather cultural exchange with the West, through the Dutch since the 17th century. Japan–Netherlands relations - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan%E2%80%93Netherlands_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan%E2%80%93Netherlands_rela... --- To return to the "leap-frogging to the modern era" - it seems that developing nations are all in the process of doing this. I recall reading how many African countries "skipped over" the building of traditional telephone infrastructure, and went staight to mobile. That also supports your argument that it only takes a couple generations for a country to catch up to modern standard of technology. But to surpass it, and become the leading edge, probably requires a bigger cultural change - to have an academic and business environment that fosters innovation. In that aspect, I think the U.S. has a lead in the world, and will continue to keep that competitive advantage for a while. It suggests that cultural (and perhaps social and psychological) change is harder to achieve than the knowledge transfer of technology.
- speeder 6y ago
  Don't forget that even before the Dutch have shown up, there was portuguese missionaries in Japan, that among other things, introduced firearms there, that caught on fairly quickly because how easier it was to manufacture cheap firearms and give them to Ashigaru compared to training a full sword or yari samurai. In a way, Japanese was ahead of Europe, using mass produced firearms in warfare earlier than Europe did.
  - blaser-waffle 6y ago
    Supposedly tempura started as a result of Portuguese traders in Japan.
  - fsloth 6y ago
    Oh, that’s a good point! However, after 17th century gun industry declined in Japan, and Japanese gun manufacturing was way behind europe in the beginning of 19th century [0]. But they really picked up the pace after that! Japanese Arisaka bolt-action rifles were the cheap-and-plentiful firearm used in many countries up to ww2. I have one Type-38 from 1905 or so and it sure is still very nice.[1] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_of_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_of_Japan [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arisaka https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arisaka
  - lioeters 6y ago
    Ah, you're right - I forgot that the Portuguese had earlier exchange with Japan, during the 16th century. Japan-Portugal History - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan%E2%80%93Portugal_relations#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan%E2%80%93Portugal_relatio... Right, I'm connecting the dots, picturing the historical context.. That reminds me how Japanese children are taught in basic school about 黒船, "black ships", as representing first contact with the West. Black Ships - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Ships https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Ships This was part of the Age of Discovery, as the Portuguese (chronologically) led the discovery of Africa, Asia, the Americas..

by fsloth 6y ago

lioeters 6y ago

The historical example of Japan absorbing knowledge and technology, leap-frogging to the modern era, is a good support for your argument. There are fascinating artifacts from the period following Japan's opening up to foreign trade, reminiscent of European science in the Renaissance era - with an Asian twist. I'd like to point out though, that there was a steady "leak" of technology, or rather cultural exchange with the West, through the Dutch since the 17th century. Japan–Netherlands relations - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan%E2%80%93Netherlands_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan%E2%80%93Netherlands_rela... --- To return to the "leap-frogging to the modern era" - it seems that developing nations are all in the process of doing this. I recall reading how many African countries "skipped over" the building of traditional telephone infrastructure, and went staight to mobile. That also supports your argument that it only takes a couple generations for a country to catch up to modern standard of technology. But to surpass it, and become the leading edge, probably requires a bigger cultural change - to have an academic and business environment that fosters innovation. In that aspect, I think the U.S. has a lead in the world, and will continue to keep that competitive advantage for a while. It suggests that cultural (and perhaps social and psychological) change is harder to achieve than the knowledge transfer of technology.

speeder 6y ago
Don't forget that even before the Dutch have shown up, there was portuguese missionaries in Japan, that among other things, introduced firearms there, that caught on fairly quickly because how easier it was to manufacture cheap firearms and give them to Ashigaru compared to training a full sword or yari samurai. In a way, Japanese was ahead of Europe, using mass produced firearms in warfare earlier than Europe did.
- blaser-waffle 6y ago
  Supposedly tempura started as a result of Portuguese traders in Japan.
- fsloth 6y ago
  Oh, that’s a good point! However, after 17th century gun industry declined in Japan, and Japanese gun manufacturing was way behind europe in the beginning of 19th century [0]. But they really picked up the pace after that! Japanese Arisaka bolt-action rifles were the cheap-and-plentiful firearm used in many countries up to ww2. I have one Type-38 from 1905 or so and it sure is still very nice.[1] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_of_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_of_Japan [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arisaka https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arisaka
- lioeters 6y ago
  Ah, you're right - I forgot that the Portuguese had earlier exchange with Japan, during the 16th century. Japan-Portugal History - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan%E2%80%93Portugal_relations#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan%E2%80%93Portugal_relatio... Right, I'm connecting the dots, picturing the historical context.. That reminds me how Japanese children are taught in basic school about 黒船, "black ships", as representing first contact with the West. Black Ships - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Ships https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Ships This was part of the Age of Discovery, as the Portuguese (chronologically) led the discovery of Africa, Asia, the Americas..